Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 22:36:07 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jun16.083607.23802@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard OIT Network Services Subject: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA I had originally posted a fairly long reply to Steve's long reply to my long reply. Hopefully, I got the cancel out before it got too far. While re-reading my reply, I realized that more heat was being generated than light and that the discussion had degenerated into name calling and accusations. My reply was just defending my position and shooting holes in Steve's. I didn't really contribute much in the way of insight to either side. I think that any further arguing about this issue should be done via email and I will restrict it to email. Let's just say that Steve and I disagree about what is wrong with the way competitions are judged, especially choreographed events. Let's also say that we don't agree about what the AKA's involvement in all of this should be. I think our views have been aired. I'm sorry that this has started to get out of hand. I hope that I haven't wasted too much of anyone's time. There are two exceptions to this that I want to make. The first has to do with the AKA Convention. The second has to do with "mindshare": In article steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >A lot of that money comes from Sport Kites--everybody who wants to compete >in a Sport Kite Competition _has_ to join the AKA. I think that, although >it might be hard in the beginning, a more focused organization would be >better--and would put aside the issues of inequity--(viz. the Convention >will spend about 200f its time on Sport Kites--is that the percentage of >Sport Kite fliers? I don't think so.). The AKA Board of Directors made the decision to spend one day on stunt kite competition and one day on single line competition (or more properly, Comprehensive kite competition). The rest of the time is intended to be used for workshops, seminars, demonstrations, general flying and visiting with people. This move was taken because a large and vocal group of people complained to the board that too much time was being spent on competition, that less importance should be placed on competition and more emphasis should be placed on the other things. One of the points that was brought up during discussion of this matter was the fact that people came to the convention because all of the big name kite flyers and kite makers were going to be there. Competition drew these folks to the event. So, the compromise was made to have one day of competition for each side. It was hoped that this would draw people to the event for both the competition and for the social/educational/whatever side of things. Maybe this was a mistake. If it is, then next year things will be different. If it is a mistake, AKA members have to tell the board why it was a mistake and what to do next time. So far, I've talked to a lot of people about this, maybe 50, and a small number, less than 5, thought that this was a mistake. >This is also a question of "mindshare". The AKA is run by many folks that >simply don't understand the issues of Sport Kites, not because they're dumb, >but because their not fliers themselves. Sometimes you've just "got to be >there", so to speak... I take issue with this statement. If you go down the list of the board of directors you find many folks who are involved in the organization of stunt kite events (Dave Gomberg, Susie Edison, Genny and Eric Forsberg, Al Hargas, Corky Chewning, and myself), or are flyers (Mel Hickman, Brooks Leffler, Pete Dolphin, and all of the folks mentioned in the previous list). I'm sure that I've missed some folks, their names just don't leap to mind (they say that the mind is the second thing to go). All of these folks understand the issues more than most flyers out there. They all care enough about what is going on to get involved, to spend their time and their money to make sure things get done. And if they have deficiencies, then it is up to the folks that care to educate them/us. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 10:50:50 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jun16.205050.29503@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA In article , steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >This is all fine an dandy: you're through with the debate, and want to raise >a white flag and be done with it. Fine. If you want to think that I'm raising a white flag, fine. You win. Everything you say is right... >Oh, so we take two of my weakest points, and DEBATE THEM INSTEAD. The two >points brought up in the reply were cursory to my central points, and I didn't >give them much thought. As such, they are the easiest to punch holes in. I'm not trying to debate these points. The first point I made, about why the AKA Board made the decision that it did was meant as an explanation. Some people are confused about why the AKA made it's decision. I was hoping to shed some light. The second point, the one about "mindshare", was to correct incorrect information about the folks who run the AKA. The Board of Directors may be making the wrong decisions, but that's not because they don't care about stunt kiting. They do care and they are aware of the issues. >So, instead of a white flag, this is just an elaborate flanking move. Great, you win. I admit it. I was trying to outsmart you, but I certainly can't do that. >Marty mentions that only 100f the people he's talked to have a problem >with the Convention in its current format. My only response to that is >that he's talked to the wrong 50 people. He's talked to single-line advocates, >and people that want a chance to see thier friends. Don't get me wrong--I >don't have a problem with any of the above. I don't even have a problem with >what the Convention IS, I have a problem with what it IS NOT. The number is less than 10 I actually have run into only 2 or 3 people. You shouldn't jump to conclusions about who I talked to. I make it to a lot of the Eastern League stunt kite events, I organize one of these events. Most of the people that I deal with are serious stunt kite advocates. The 50 or so people that I talked with were folks at MASKC and at Wildwood and on the fields where I fly, which are almost entirely stunt kite people. >I go to flying fields here in the Bay Area and I see hundreds of fliers every >weekend--all flying Sport Kites. None of them want to go see their friends >at the AKA. None of them have friends at the AKA. Most of them do not want >to learn how to sew. Most of them just fly kites, and find the activity >challenging and interesting. They all love to see great flyers flying. I'm sorry that they don't have friends who are AKA members. There are lots of great people in the AKA. And it isn't just about sewing. There have been workshops/seminars on tuning flexi's given by Ray Merry. a delta stunt kite tuning workshop which was given by Don Tabor, with lots of help by Ron Reich and Alan Nagao. Judging workshops have also been given. Oh and a tuning/materials workshop given by Dean Jordan. So, most of the folks that you know won't be happy with the AKA convention. That's fine. I'll be going and will have a great time. >You can go into this _particular_ decision by the AKA all you want--I just >see it as a sign of an organization that is trying to cater to to broad of >a spectrum of personalities and interests. > >The alternative, to be sure, was to fill the Convention with Sport Kite >events. This would have been the opposite side of the same coin: single-line >folks and non-competitors would not have been pleased. I think the AKA >will not be able to deal with these two different personalities--just because >they are so different... This may very well be the case. The AKA is trying. Maybe there needs to be many different organizations. I don't believe that this is the case, but obviously, it's just my opinion. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 09:13:57 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA In article <1993Jun16.083607.23802@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3 (Marty Sasaki) writes: >I had originally posted a fairly long reply to Steve's long reply to >my long reply. Hopefully, I got the cancel out before it got too far. > >While re-reading my reply, I realized that more heat was being >generated than light and that the discussion had degenerated into name >calling and accusations. My reply was just defending my position and >shooting holes in Steve's. I didn't really contribute much in the way >of insight to either side. I think that any further arguing about this >issue should be done via email and I will restrict it to email. > >Let's just say that Steve and I disagree about what is wrong with the >way competitions are judged, especially choreographed events. Let's >also say that we don't agree about what the AKA's involvement in all >of this should be. I think our views have been aired. > >I'm sorry that this has started to get out of hand. I hope that I >haven't wasted too much of anyone's time. This is all fine an dandy: you're through with the debate, and want to raise a white flag and be done with it. Fine. > >There are two exceptions to this that I want to make. The first has to >do with the AKA Convention. The second has to do with "mindshare": Oh, so we take two of my weakest points, and DEBATE THEM INSTEAD. The two points brought up in the reply were cursory to my central points, and I didn't give them much thought. As such, they are the easiest to punch holes in. So, instead of a white flag, this is just an elaborate flanking move. We're talking about a very important issue, and I don't think we're "boring" too many people: if we are, there's always the N key... ******** I'm certainly not trying to tear down the AKA, certainly there are a lot of very good people in it, and a lot of people I am very greatful to for their work with the organizing of competitions. Marty mentions that only 100f the people he's talked to have a problem with the Convention in its current format. My only response to that is that he's talked to the wrong 50 people. He's talked to single-line advocates, and people that want a chance to see thier friends. Don't get me wrong--I don't have a problem with any of the above. I don't even have a problem with what the Convention IS, I have a problem with what it IS NOT. The Convention before this year doubled as the "Grand Championships" where best fliers in the country got together and flew. A know a lot of people that really looked forward to seeing the best fliers in the country get together and fly--just to see them fly. If you want to have a small club confined to people you know that do the things you want to do, fine. I go to flying fields here in the Bay Area and I see hundreds of fliers every weekend--all flying Sport Kites. None of them want to go see their friends at the AKA. None of them have friends at the AKA. Most of them do not want to learn how to sew. Most of them just fly kites, and find the activity challenging and interesting. They all love to see great flyers flying. My problem with the AKA is not the people--far from it. I think that there are irreconcilible differences here. On one hand, you have the "masses"--hundreds and thousands of people that are keeping Chicago Fire, Spectra Sport, Prism Designs, etc. in business every year. Just these three manufacturers probably sell several thousand units every month--which is to say, several thousand people across the world (or some percentage of this) get into Sport Kites every month. These are people that are looking for a new activity; along with fishing, or Rollerblading, or golfing, or whatever. These are action-oriented people that don't necessarily live and breath kites--they just fly for the fun of it occasionally. These are people that will spend an afternoon watching the best flyers in the world strut their stuff. Then there's the AKA. The AKA is a great little family. There are a lot of great personalities and very nice people running the AKA (the Foresburgs come to mind...). It's a great bunch of folks. The AKA has to cover the interests of something besides THIS, though. I look forward to seeing friends at the competitions, too--but it doesn't mean I think that the AKA should be centered around THIS activity. Again, there are a lot of people I know--George Ham (famous maker of parafoils) would come to mind--that don't have a lot in common with, say, John Barressi (last year's top-ranking Experienced Flyer). Asking these two personalities to fit into the same "social gathering" just doesn't work. I'm sure Marty will want to talk to George at length at the convention. I really don't see what us Sport Kite Flyers are going to do there except mabey annoy them with our loud kites and all or our running around. I think the AKA thought of the issue this way this year, and acted accordingly. The personalities and the thousands of flyers of sport kites need an organization that is centered around competitive sport kite flying. This doesn't mean that the current format of the AKA is somehow bad--it's great for what it is. By labeling itself as the central authority for Sport Kite Flying, however, it is trying to be something it is not. You can go into this _particular_ decision by the AKA all you want--I just see it as a sign of an organization that is trying to cater to to broad of a spectrum of personalities and interests. The alternative, to be sure, was to fill the Convention with Sport Kite events. This would have been the opposite side of the same coin: single-line folks and non-competitors would not have been pleased. I think the AKA will not be able to deal with these two different personalities--just because they are so different... The way events are judged, you see, is another sign. If the AKA continues to try to be everything to everybody, its going to end up being nothing to nobody. -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "You'll never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator." -- Lisa Simpson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 12:20:30 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA Steve Thomas (steveth@netcom.com) wrote: [lots of interesting stuff deleted :-) ] : Again, there are a lot of people I know--George Ham (famous maker of : parafoils) would come to mind--that don't have a lot in common with, say, : John Barressi (last year's top-ranking Experienced Flyer). Asking these ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : two personalities to fit into the same "social gathering" just doesn't : work. I'm sure Marty will want to talk to George at length at the : convention. I really don't see what us Sport Kite Flyers are going to do : there except mabey annoy them with our loud kites and all or our running : around. I think the AKA thought of the issue this way this year, and : acted accordingly. Ah, well, I can't keep quiet.....first the disclaimers: 1. I live in Berkeley, and my "home" flying park is Berkeley's Waterfront Park. 2. I am a member of AKA. 3. Manufacturers don't know I exist. 4. My primary interest is single-line kites. I see John Beressi almost every time I go to the park. We usually chat. About a recent or upcoming competition, his new team, life. He asks what I'm working on. Recently John told me he'd just finished sewing the skin for his first single-line kite, a Tri-D. I suspect he and George Ham would do ok at the same gathering. ************************* I've been reading the article about the AKA with moderate interest, as I'm not real concerned about where the AKA is going.....in general I like the changes for the convention. I would like to say something about Dave Gomberg. It took a little while to get used to him --- I needed to spend time talking to him individually instead of just hearing him speak. He's a good person, listens well, knows he isn't perfect (gosh, just like the rest of us), etc. etc. And, I think the AKA has been very fortunate to have as president someone like Dave who can devote so much time to the organization (keep in mind that the direction the organization goes is not based on Dave's whim but on the voices of the members). The presidency of AKA is not a paid position, and I don't begrudge Dave any side benefits, including media attention. So, now I've mangled and merged a couple of threads. Anne rock@netcom.com "My feeling is that while we should have the deepest respect for reality, we should not let it control our lives." Cartoon by Richter = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 02:08:09 -1000 From: lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca (Larry Marshall) Message-Id: Organization: Forestry Canada - Petawawa National Forestry Institute Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA In steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >I'm certainly not trying to tear down the AKA, certainly there are a lot of >very good people in it, and a lot of people I am very greatful to for their >work with the organizing of competitions. Aw come on Steve... I have no vested interest in the AKA and yet your msgs have consistently struck me as negative towards the AKA. You've put down the people, their motives, their events. What's left? >Marty mentions that only 100f the people he's talked to have a problem >with the Convention in its current format. My only response to that is >that he's talked to the wrong 50 people. He's talked to single-line advocates, Isn't this the root of the problem; you want to define the scope of the kiting community to be competitors. They are but one segment of a much larger group that should be served by a national kiting association. If the organization were called the American Competition Kite Association maybe you'd have a legitimate claim that Marty is talking with the wrong people. But otherwise, getting an opinion from anyone who likes to hold a string in his hand should be appropriate. >If you want to have a small club confined to people you know that do the >things you want to do, fine. Maybe a good reading of your own msgs might be in order. This is exactly what you're suggesting that the AKA become and you've pointedly suggested it should be comprised of and mandated to serve, your kind of people. All of your examples point in this direction as well as most of your direct statements. >On one hand, you have the "masses"--hundreds and thousands of people that >are keeping Chicago Fire, Spectra Sport, Prism Designs, etc. in business >every year. Just these three manufacturers probably sell several thousand >units every month--which is to say, several thousand people across the And how many of these end up in competition? Excepting this conference and some email with Ron Reich, I've never talked with a competitive kite flyer. I do own several hundred dollars worth of kites and fly them with others owning same. Doesn't this argue Marty's case, not yours? >Then there's the AKA. The AKA is a great little family. There are a lot >of great personalities and very nice people running the AKA (the Foresburgs >come to mind...). It's a great bunch of folks. >The AKA has to cover the interests of something besides THIS, though. I >look forward to seeing friends at the competitions, too--but it doesn't >mean I think that the AKA should be centered around THIS activity. Maybe I'm the only one (no, I know that's not true because a couple of my friends are the same way) but the reason to attend a kite gathering is to get to know other people and see their kites. That's what we sport flyers do. Competitive flyers may be a different kettle of fish entirely but don't discount the social aspects of kiting and its events just because that's not why you attend. >Again, there are a lot of people I know--George Ham (famous maker of >parafoils) would come to mind--that don't have a lot in common with, say, >John Barressi (last year's top-ranking Experienced Flyer). Asking these >two personalities to fit into the same "social gathering" just doesn't Interesting.... the Olympics are based upon the principle that you can bring different peoples with different specific interests into one place for an organized event of all those activities. Seems to work there. Are you saying that George Ham and John Barressi wouldn't be willing to talk to one another or watch each other fly? I wonder.... By the way, this format (bringing many divergent interests with one common thread) is known as the "Nationals" in the model airplane world. These events are very successful. >convention. I really don't see what us Sport Kite Flyers are going to do >there except mabey annoy them with our loud kites and all or our running >around. I think the AKA thought of the issue this way this year, and >acted accordingly. Have you been snubbed by someone in the AKA? Is this what the debate is all about? I have limited experience with kite-dom. There are cliques in every endeavor, however. To be honest I haven't seen much evidence of them in kiting in my limited experience though. Ron Reich recently spent a lot of time explaining flying methodologies and such to me. I've learned a lot from the couple small events I've attended primarily because the people are not only willing to share information, they revel in the idea of doing so. Maybe that's why I have such a hard time understanding your position on all this. >The personalities and the thousands of flyers of sport kites need an >organization that is centered around competitive sport kite flying. This >doesn't mean that the current format of the AKA is somehow bad--it's great >for what it is. By labeling itself as the central authority for Sport Kite >Flying, however, it is trying to be something it is not. So you believe that dividing the universe into the "guys who take it seriously" >From the "other folks" is a healthy situation, right? I couldn't disagree more. There were attempts at doing this in competitive archery. It's something akin to having professional amateurs and it just doesn't work. You lose the support of the masses for your activity. The only gain is that you don't have to answer a bunch of basic questions when you're at a meet because the "other guys" aren't there. They also aren't paying their registration fees that make the events do-able in the first place. Whether a separate subcommittee within the parent organization should direct rule formation, however, is a different matter and this is what has occurred in the model airplane game. >You can go into this _particular_ decision by the AKA all you want--I just >see it as a sign of an organization that is trying to cater to to broad of >a spectrum of personalities and interests. Without knowing anything of the organization, the name of it suggests that this is their mandate. ---------- Larry Marshall lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca Forestry Canada (613) 589-2880 Petawawa National Forestry Institute (613) 589-2275 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 08:35:21 -1000 From: lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca (Larry Marshall) Message-Id: Organization: Forestry Canada - Petawawa National Forestry Institute Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA In steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >organizations out there that include say, Archery and Slam Dancing. You >just don't see that because the activities are so different. My point here >has been that single-line kite flying and Sport Kite flying are just >as different. I'll make only one other point since you seem to be getting rather worked up over this. The model airplane organization to which I've referred several times governs the flying of 2 gram airplanes powered by rubber bands and flown indoor, airplanes flown at high speeds on lines attached to the pilot's hand, as well as people flying 40lb radio control airplanes at speeds exceeding 100 mph. Is this not at least as divergent as the dichotomy that has you worried? This organization has done this successfully for a very long time and is not likely to blow itself apart. >That's the point about the AKA; nothing else. If you'd like to take issue >with _THIS_ point, then please enlighten me--don't try to put other ideas >in my posts and tear THEM down... As a scientist I've been taught that mis-communication is a shared responsibility of both the communicator and those to which he/she is trying to communicate. You've seen several AKA members defending the organization and its causes. It would seem this should be sufficient for you to understand that it has not been my singular inability to understand you that is at fault here. But I think it's time for me to bow out of this as there is nothing to be gained by this sniping. ---------- Larry Marshall lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca Forestry Canada (613) 589-2880 Petawawa National Forestry Institute (613) 589-2275 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 07:36:15 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA In article lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca (Larry Marshall) writes: >In steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: > >>I'm certainly not trying to tear down the AKA, certainly there are a lot of >>very good people in it, and a lot of people I am very greatful to for their >>work with the organizing of competitions. > >Aw come on Steve... I have no vested interest in the AKA and yet your >msgs have consistently struck me as negative towards the AKA. You've >put down the people, their motives, their events. What's left? > Well I can only write the statement so clearly. If you still want to interpret my statement negatively, there's nothing I can do about it (I won't waste my time repeating my paragraph above). >>Marty mentions that only 100f the people he's talked to have a problem >>with the Convention in its current format. My only response to that is >>that he's talked to the wrong 50 people. He's talked to single-line advocates, > >Isn't this the root of the problem; you want to define the scope of the >kiting community to be competitors. [...] I never said this, once again you're puting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that I wanted to "limit the scope of the kiting community". Nowhere. > >>If you want to have a small club confined to people you know that do the >>things you want to do, fine. > >Maybe a good reading of your own msgs might be in order. This is exactly >what you're suggesting that the AKA become and you've pointedly suggested >it should be comprised of and mandated to serve, your kind of people. All >of your examples point in this direction as well as most of your direct >statements. MABEY A GOOD READING of ***MY*** POSTS WOULD BE IN ORDER. You've taken the above statement completely out of context and changed its meaning. > >>On one hand, you have the "masses"--hundreds and thousands of people that >>are keeping Chicago Fire, Spectra Sport, Prism Designs, etc. in business >>every year. Just these three manufacturers probably sell several thousand >>units every month--which is to say, several thousand people across the > >And how many of these end up in competition? Excepting this conference and >some email with Ron Reich, I've never talked with a competitive kite flyer. >I do own several hundred dollars worth of kites and fly them with others >owning same. Doesn't this argue Marty's case, not yours? > (I don't know, what exactly _is_ "Marty's case"?) Obviously, most people aren't going to end up in competition. That's not what I'm talking about here. Mabey this is where you've gone wrong: just because I advocate something does not mean I want to force every man, women and child on Earth to do that something. I have found myself coming to the conclusion--just in these postings--that the AKA will be very hard pressed to keep its divergent interests together. This does not mean I'm slamming the AKA--it means I don't think it can be done by God, Zeus, All the Kings Horses, or anybody else. There aren't organizations out there that include say, Archery and Slam Dancing. You just don't see that because the activities are so different. My point here has been that single-line kite flying and Sport Kite flying are just as different. That's the point about the AKA; nothing else. If you'd like to take issue with _THIS_ point, then please enlighten me--don't try to put other ideas in my posts and tear THEM down... -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "You'll never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator." -- Lisa Simpson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 08:39:42 -1000 From: @vines.colostate.edu,@dce:kyoder@admin (Ken Yoder) Message-Id: Organization: Colorado State University Subject: Re: The Marty and Steve Show, an apolgy, and an explanation about AKA In article rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) writes: >Ah, well, I can't keep quiet.....first the disclaimers:> >1. I live in Berkeley, and my "home" flying park is Berkeley's Waterfront Park. >2. I am a member of AKA. >3. Manufacturers don't know I exist. >4. My primary interest is single-line kites. Likewise, I guess I have to get my 2 cents in... 1. I live in Colorado 2. I am a member of AKA 3. Manufacturers don't know I exist either. 4. My primary interest is stunt (sport?) kites. I have never been to a competition (there aren't many close to Colorado:() but I will soon. To be frank, if it isn't a "social gathering" where I can talk to flyers, get dumb questions answered and attend workshops given by "experts", I'll just stay home and buy the video! So much for expanding the sport... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =