Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 08:43:08 -1000 From: Colin_Douthwaite@equinox.gen.nz (Colin Douthwaite) Message-Id: <3hgc3s$mj8@southern.co.nz> Organization: Southern InterNet Services Subject: Peter Lynn wins court case The following report appeared in the 10 February 1995 edition of "The Christchurch Press": -------------------------------------------------------------------- KITEMAKER WINS CASE Ashburton kitemaker Peter Lynn has won more than $ 250,000 in damages against a Dutch company that imported Chinese copies of an internationally successful kite design. A Dutch court has ordered Siegers Vliegers, of Smilde, in northern Holland to pay damages to Mr Lynn's company for importing the copycat kites during the past two years. The court has also imposed 12 other conditions on the Dutch company. They included recovering all the copied kites and destroying them, and giving Mr Lynn's company access to records of all buyers of the kites, including retailers and private individuals. Mr Lynn said yesterday that the court's ruling was a "complete victory". It was a test case for the whole kite industry, said Mr Lynn. " We have to stop the rot now or we'll never own our own products. Our case rested on the fact the kites were our original design." - NZ Press Association ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bye, = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 21:02:25 -1000 From: auster@iitbdv.iitb.fhg.de (Patrick Austermann) Message-Id: <9502130702.AA18667@susi.tclan> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case > Ashburton kitemaker Peter Lynn has won more than $ 250,000 in > damages against a Dutch company that imported Chinese copies of an > internationally successful kite design. ##### ####### # # ##### ###### # ####### # # # # # # ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #### ###### # # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # # # ####### # # # # # # # # ## # # # # # # # # # ##### ####### # # ##### # # # # # ##### # # ####### ### ####### # # ##### # # # # # # # ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### # ####### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ## # # ####### # # # ### ####### # # ##### from a Peter Lynn-Fan ! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:34:42 -1000 From: coastlbrez@aol.com (CoastlBrez) Message-Id: <3hj712$5cf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case While this is great news for the innovators of the kiting industry, and especially manufactures (I being one), I feel that this victory sets a standard......in New Zealand!!! Living in Southern California, there are a few individuals here whom are making money on other people's designs. One person in peticular has not only effected our development work (previuosly done in San Diego area, now moved to a secret location), but has actually threatened to "Copy the f**ckin' thing and sell them to (a large mail order company in the Mid-West) before you will even finish the bridle!" While I can say that we are lucky enough at this time to not have to worry about the copying of our designs, I do realize how bad the situation can be. The answer for us here in the States is simple. We, the kite manufactures, distributors, and especially retailers need to take control of our sport. If we would all learn to be a little more productive with each other, and pratice what we preach ("We are tying to premote the sport..."), mabe we can all earn a little respect amoungst ourselves. We can stop this from happening if we work together. The manufacturer needs to work with the distributor on supplying a quality product that the retailer needs, and the kite flyer can AFFORD!!!!! The retail outlets need to learn to work together. We have been trying to get the stores locally to work together to order larger amounts of products (line, handles, spars, windsocks, kites not found locally, etc.) and help everyone out in the process. By grouping our buying power together, we help the manufacturer by giving them the ability to produce a quanity that is cost effective, the distributor can then lower unit costs which create savings that can be passed on to the retailer. The retail outlets are the key. Learn how to competively price your product ( 100 markup is still nothing if you can't sell it!), and the customer will not only buy, but come back. "Expertise and knowledge is a given, customer service and pride in your products is the key!" (W. McKay: Swimming with the Sharks) We have worked very hard with our manufactor and the retail outlets to come up with a quality product at a great price. I feel that Peter Lynn's victory proves one thing. It was his idea, and he deserves the riches for his designs. But it also proves to us the members of this industry that if we don't get smart, and start working together to make this sport more appealing and AFFORDABLE for the average comsumer, the copy cats will always be lurking to knock off one of our products and make a buck. A buck that we rightfully deserve, but one that is spent at the disgression of the customer based on our service! "Brisa Dio" Coastal Breeze/Flying Wings = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 20:15:29 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case [I know very little more about this than has been publicly released, I *don't* speak for Peter Lynn, and have asked him to comment himself] pp@wsinti10.win.tue.nl (Peter Peters) writes: >>They included recovering all the copied kites and destroying them, >>and giving Mr Lynn's company access to records of all buyers of the >>kites, including retailers and private individuals. > >For what purposes are those private individuals records needed ? I >sincerely do not hope these people are going to have to pay for what >Siegers did wrong.... I even doubt if it within Dutch law to provide >personal records for these puposes.... but note I'm not a lawyer :-) Hmmm... How about for informing them? As I understand it, Peter first found out about the rip-offs because they were returned to *his* factory because they didn't fly properly. Someone would appear to have been passing the kites off as genuine Lynn's. The victims of this should at the very least be informed. On the other hand, Peter has good reason to be very angry. He sweats blood on research and design, develops a kite that beats the rest of the world hands down, and then there are customers who are prepared to buy the rip-offs knowingly. There have been mentions here about the price, but I've seen the way he works - sure, there is no wolf at the door, but Peter is a penny-pincher and slave driver (eh Dean?). He gets these things to the customer as cheaply as he possibly can. No-one is creaming off big money from the kites (Peter drives a second-hand Honda, etc...). From the press release we can glean the two ways that Seigler managed to beat his price: 1) he used 3rd world labour (and didn't have the experience and/or control to pull this off) and 2) his Research and Development costs were practicaly nill (ass opposed to a couple of life-times of work by Peter and Philip) Every rip-off sold was hurting a real people. The victims were more likely to be the people who build kites for Peter, then Peter himself. Have a look at my point of view on the following senarios: Customer knowingly buys rip-off from Seigler. The kite should be burnt. Customer unknowingly buys rep-off from Seigler. The kite should be burnt. Customer should sue Seigler. Dealer knowingly buys rip off from Seigler. Customer buys unknowingly from Dealer. The kite should be burnt. Customer should sue Dealer. Dealer unknowingly buys rip-off from Seigler. I don't see how this can happen unless the Dealer is very stupid. It's a bit like dealing in stolen property - buyer beware! Andrew -- Does a Rev War Kite have 4 lines and fly on Manja? o /\ Kite Jumping: Read the Kite FAQ's: ftp.hawaii.edu:/pub/rec/kites/faq |_ \/ If you want For sale: Prototype Keelless Rowlands Flowform. US$80 (_\ to fly, use a Kite Fliers Site: http://www.kfs.org/kites andrew@tug.com Hangglider = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 22:56:10 -1000 From: pp@wsinti10.win.tue.nl (Peter Peters) Message-Id: <3hn6ra$9h3@wsinti10.win.tue.nl> Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case Colin_Douthwaite@equinox.gen.nz (Colin Douthwaite) writes: >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >KITEMAKER WINS CASE >Ashburton kitemaker Peter Lynn has won more than $ 250,000 in >damages against a Dutch company that imported Chinese copies of an >internationally successful kite design. >A Dutch court has ordered Siegers Vliegers, of Smilde, in northern >Holland to pay damages to Mr Lynn's company for importing the >copycat kites during the past two years. I can't say anything on the amount of money, but damages refund seems to be in place here.... >They included recovering all the copied kites and destroying them, >and giving Mr Lynn's company access to records of all buyers of the >kites, including retailers and private individuals. For what purposes are those private individuals records needed ? I sincerely do not hope these people are going to have to pay for what Siegers did wrong.... I even doubt if it within Dutch law to provide personal records for these puposes.... but note I'm not a lawyer :-) >" We have to stop the rot now or we'll never own our own products. > Our case rested on the fact the kites were our original design." Agreed ! Peter. -- Peter Peters, pp@win.tue.nl, http://www.win.tue.nl/win/cs/fm/pp/ Like kites.... look at http://www.win.tue.nl/win/cs/fm/pp/Kites/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:58:20 -1000 From: chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) Message-Id: <792914300snx@Sound.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > On the other hand, Peter has good reason to be very angry. He sweats > blood on research and design, develops a kite that beats the rest of the > world hands down, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't disagree with the first part of your statement but what basis do you use to justify the second part, as that's certainley not the case in the UK. O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O | Duct tape is like the Force: | | It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the Universe together. | O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O |InterNet - Chris@Sound.Demon.Co.Uk| QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM |Chris Lamb| O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 00:52:47 -1000 From: pp@wsintt16.win.tue.nl (Peter Peters) Message-Id: <3hvapv$e37@wsintt16.win.tue.nl> Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >[I know very little more about this than has been publicly released, >I *don't* speak for Peter Lynn, and have asked him to comment himself] >pp@wsinti10.win.tue.nl (Peter Peters) writes: >>For what purposes are those private individuals records needed ? >Hmmm... How about for informing them? Ok, that's fine with me. >On the other hand, Peter has good reason to be very angry. Agreed ! I stated that in my post as well. >Have a look at my point of view on the following senarios: [deleted 4 scenario's in which a lot of (maybe bad) kites were burnt :-)] >It's a bit like dealing in stolen property - buyer beware! Ok I can live with that, except for the fact that IF the buyer (I'm not talking about dealers) had no reason to suspect he/she was buying an illegal copy, he/she has to go through a lot of trouble (sueing) getting back the bucks spent on the kite >From whoever sold the kite. That may not be according to the law. But it is according to my feelings about justice... I don't want ANYBODY getting cheated out of their money. Not Peter Lynn nor the unsuspecting customer. -- Peter Peters, pp@win.tue.nl, http://www.win.tue.nl/win/cs/fm/pp/ Like kites.... look at http://www.win.tue.nl/win/cs/fm/pp/Kites/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 23:23:52 -1000 From: rvdp@xs4all.nl (Ronald van der Putten) Message-Id: Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article , andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: > > Every rip-off sold was hurting a real people. The victims were more likely > to be the people who build kites for Peter, then Peter himself. Have a look > at my point of view on the following senarios: > > Customer knowingly buys rip-off from Seigler. The kite should be burnt. > > Customer unknowingly buys rep-off from Seigler. The kite should be burnt. > Customer should sue Seigler. > > Dealer knowingly buys rip off from Seigler. Customer buys unknowingly from > Dealer. The kite should be burnt. Customer should sue Dealer. > > Dealer unknowingly buys rip-off from Seigler. I don't see how this can > happen unless the Dealer is very stupid. > > It's a bit like dealing in stolen property - buyer beware! > > Andrew > -- Hey Andrew!, Not that I disagree on the mather, but now you are sounding like a little boy! Ronald _______________________________________________________________________________ Ronald van der Putten, Heemstede, The Netherlands rvdp@xs4all.nl DoubleSpace....., 328 Days before next birthday Beyond the final frontier, To boldly go where no one has gone before. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 07:40:25 -1000 From: (I rather go fly a kite.) Message-Id: <3i02m9$dj0@nic.dot.state.mn.us> Organization: Minnesota Pollution Control Agency Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case What kind of kite is this? hsu In article <3hgc3s$mj8@southern.co.nz>, Colin_Douthwaite@equinox.gen.nz (Colin Douthwaite) writes: >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >KITEMAKER WINS CASE > >Ashburton kitemaker Peter Lynn has won more than $ 250,000 in >damages against a Dutch company that imported Chinese copies of an >internationally successful kite design. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuan-Ming Hsu yuan-ming.hsu@pca.state.mn.us Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (GWSWPD) Phone: (612) 297-2716 520 LaFayette Road Fax: (612) 296-9707 ST. Paul, MN 55155-4194 "Mutant Ninja Geologist" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:54:11 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: >andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >> On the other hand, Peter has good reason to be very angry. He sweats >> blood on research and design, develops a kite that beats the rest of the >> world hands down, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I don't disagree with the first part of your statement but what basis do >you use to justify the second part, as that's certainley not the case in >the UK. [Andrew laughs] Ok, maybe I got a little carried away, and overlooked Flexifoil, who will no-doubt waltz away with the outright speed record, when people eventually get round to tackling it seriously (like using tarmac, buggies designed for the job, and the patience to wait around for a month for the right conditions...) You would be right also to point out the impressive work being done in the 4-line arena by the likes of Cobra, but only the most blinkered would deny Peter's position at the leading edge of the art. Andrew -- Does a Rev War Kite have 4 lines and fly on Manja? o /\ Kite Jumping: Read the Kite FAQ's: ftp.hawaii.edu:/pub/rec/kites/faq |_ \/ If you want For sale: Prototype Keelless Rowlands Flowform. US$80 (_\ to fly, use a Kite Fliers Site: http://www.kfs.org/kites andrew@tug.com Hangglider = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:27:55 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article <3i02m9$dj0@nic.dot.state.mn.us> hsu_y@pca.state.mn.us writes: >What kind of kite is this? The kite is the Peter Lynn Peel (or rip-off, thereof...) There are several pictures of them at the Kite Fliers Site Web page: http://www.kfs.org/kites in both my gallery and Joanne's Gallery. Look for "Andrew with Peel", "Buggying" and "untangling a Peel bridle" :-) Andrew -- /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ o /\ Kite Jumping: Read the Kite FAQ's: ftp.hawaii.edu:/pub/rec/kites/faq |_ \/ If you want For sale: Prototype Keelless Rowlands Flowform. US$80 (_\ to fly, use a Kite Fliers Site: http://www.kfs.org/kites andrew@tug.com Hangglider = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 12:14:26 -1000 From: chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) Message-Id: <793257266snx@Sound.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: > >andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > >> On the other hand, Peter has good reason to be very angry. He sweats > >> blood on research and design, develops a kite that beats the rest of the > >> world hands down, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >I don't disagree with the first part of your statement but what basis do > >you use to justify the second part, as that's certainley not the case in > >the UK. > > [Andrew laughs] > > Ok, maybe I got a little carried away, and overlooked Flexifoil, who will > no-doubt waltz away with the outright speed record, when people eventually > get round to tackling it seriously (like using tarmac, buggies designed > for the job, and the patience to wait around for a month for the right > conditions...) I have been using flexi's since I started buggying and believe they are excellent in high winds, but do require an assistant to launch reliably in high winds. What kite currently holds the world buggy speed record as recognised by the guiness book of records? Anyone? Check the Gwithian 92 video for the answer. To really set a speed record then some form of reefing will be required, apparent wind is a killer at 40+mph. Best surgestion I've heard was flexi's with explosive charges in the stacking lines to "eject" the last kite in the stack. i.e. start with 10+ in a 5mph wind and dump them as your speed increases. > > You would be right also to point out the impressive work being done in the > 4-line arena by the likes of Cobra, but only the most blinkered would deny > Peter's position at the leading edge of the art. > Cute andrew very cute, But I did say in the UK, and was refering to race results. Heck let me spell it out. EVERY NATIONALLY ADVERTISED RACE IN THE UK DURING 1993 WAS WON BY A CERTAIN 4 LINE TRACTION SYSTEM. No matter who organised and who did or didn't turn up. Chris O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O | Duct tape is like the Force: | | It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the Universe together. | O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O |InterNet - Chris@Sound.Demon.Co.Uk| QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM |Chris Lamb| O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:48:28 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: >In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >> chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: >> >andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >> >> On the other hand, Peter has good reason to be very angry. He sweats >> >> blood on research and design, develops a kite that beats the rest of the >> >> world hands down, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >I don't disagree with the first part of your statement but what basis do >> >you use to justify the second part, as that's certainley not the case in >> >the UK. Hey! It was a throw-away comment. It was an article about rip-offs, not about comparative performance, and yes, it was my opinion (although, I don't think I'm alone...). This is getting a little out of hand, but I'll answer you... >I have been using flexi's since I started buggying and believe they are >excellent in high winds, but do require an assistant to launch reliably >in high winds. With standard spars, anchoring one line and letting the stack slide round helps a lot. You can dump sand or stones on the bag, if available. Anyway, I've seldom found it a problem as: a) Competent buggiers seldom dump their kites b) I buggy with friends who help each other. >What kite currently holds the world buggy speed record as recognised by >the guiness book of records? 39mph, if I recall correctly. This is widely recognised to be un-impressive. I've only been clocked once, at 38, in the desert, and I know that it wasn't a fast run. It isn't entirely surprising that the manufacturer who went to the trouble of setting up all the official stuff saw their product take the flag. I have little doubt that Flexi, Cobra, Lynn or Nop could smash it if they were prepared to sink the time, effort and money into setting up the event. It may not be officialy recognised, but I have no reason to disbelieve the 80kmh (or there-abouts) that was clocked by radar in Australia some time ago. >To really set a speed record then some form of reefing will be required, >apparent wind is a killer at 40+mph. Best surgestion I've heard was flexi's >with explosive charges in the stacking lines to "eject" the last kite in >the stack. Or just use a small kite and a *long* run-up... >Heck let me spell it out. EVERY NATIONALLY ADVERTISED RACE IN THE >UK DURING 1993 WAS WON BY A CERTAIN 4 LINE TRACTION SYSTEM. >No matter who organised and who did or didn't turn up. Eh? Do you mean 1993 or 1994? I don't remember 1993. I assume you made a typo and intended 1994. I can think of 20 such races: There were 6 at Pembrey. Despite phoning Mick Parsons personaly to tell him that I was coming, I was turned away and refused a race. It was obvious that I was cutting tacks both faster *and* tighter than the potato-sacks but I had no race to prove it. Mad John was conspicuous by his absence, having fun running rings round everyone, but not participating in Mick Parson's race. There were 6 at . In my first ever race, I was late to arrive and started one lap behind you (out of 3 laps!) but none-the-less came 6th out of a field of 17 or so. For the next 2 races, I followed the field (lacking the experience or conviction to cut my own racing line) and got similar 5th or 6th positions. The next day, I ignored the rest of the field and pulled in 2 wins and a second place. Note that this is 2 wins in a nationaly advertised races. Gwithian was engineered to require a weeks residence in order to take part. Vacation time is a valuable resource. The highlight of the year was spending a week at Ivanpah - the Woodstock of buggying. The idea of spending a week at an event run by someone who was un-impressed by Ivanpah didn't seem like a wise choice... At the British Buggy Thingy, there were two races. At the solo race, you followed a successful escape from the starting tangle with a flaw-less three laps and deserved your win. At the tandem, however, I seem to recall that the Modulus was somewhat embarassing. I have a strong suspicion that your stats for the PKA events will be even more impressive next year. I fully expect Modulus to take the top three positions in all races, but don't be too quick to attribute it to the performance of the equipment - look first at the number of people from the mainstream buggy and kite world who are turning their backs on the "Make cheques payable to Spider" PKA. In the end, it all comes down to personal preference. I hope that you find someone to pay 550quid for your used Modulus (presumably, so that you can spend even *more* money on a newer one?). Feel free to tell us all how wonderful you think it is. In my humble opinion, however, it is the worst combination of performance and price available. Andrew -- /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ o /\ Kite Jumping: Read the Kite FAQ's: ftp.hawaii.edu:/pub/rec/kites/faq |_ \/ If you want For sale: Prototype Keelless Rowlands Flowform. US$80 (_\ to fly, use a Kite Fliers Site: http://www.kfs.org/kites andrew@tug.com Hangglider = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:23:11 -1000 From: pbc@ufl.edu (Philip Chase) Message-Id: Organization: CIRCA, University of Florida Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) >Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:48:28 GMT (much deleted) >I have a strong suspicion that your stats for the PKA events will be even more >impressive next year. I fully expect Modulus to take the top three positions >in all races, but don't be too quick to attribute it to the performance of >the equipment - look first at the number of people from the mainstream buggy >and kite world who are turning their backs on the "Make cheques payable >to Spider" PKA. >In the end, it all comes down to personal preference. I hope that you find >someone to pay 550quid for your used Modulus (presumably, so that you can >spend even *more* money on a newer one?). Feel free to tell us all how >wonderful you think it is. In my humble opinion, however, it is the worst >combination of performance and price available. So I take it the Modulus is the kite that Chris is touting? Forgive me if I don't follow the list closely enough to know everyone's preference. That the Modulus could out perform to Peel is laughable. I had little problem matching the Modulus fliers at the Buggy Boogie Thang and that was with the *Force 10*. I am regularly beaten by Peels when I fly the Force 10. The extra angle into the wind that a Peel can achieve is the true measure of it's performance and that is how they beat me--upwind runs. I can match them on the down wind and cross wind, but upwind I rapidly loose ground. So what is this strange focus on speed? Doesn't anyone concern themselves with whether they can buggy at all if the wind direction is wrong? Ever go to a beach when the wind direction isn't quite right and find that as the tide rises you no longer have enough room to buggy because you have to tack every 30 seconds? If you could point higher into the wind, you could keep buggying. Did you ever want to move upwind of your sparring partner so you could drive him into the water on the next jib? It's a wonderful dirty trick to pull on the uninitiated. How about when you're playing tag and you know you can loose someone because you can point higher into the wind? Pass them just beyond reach and see how pissed they get. So what is so great about speed again? Is it the exagerated abrasions that will leave quality scars you can show off at next buggy event? Or maybe it's the fear it induces in your passenger when you're doing tandem? Is it the complete loss of steering and braking control on beach sand? I once slid 40 meters (in the buggy) in a failed attempt at jibing somewhere around 30 mph. My personal favorite is the stinging sensation of the water on your legs going through a run-out above about 25mph. If someone knows of a kite that can point as high into the wind as a Peel please let me know. I would love to try it. Philip Philip Chase Check out the Power Kiting Web Page pbc@ufl.edu http://grove.circa.ufl.edu/~pbc/powerkite.html 904-378-6893 Have any good power kiting info? I would FAX: 904-392-3760 like to put it on the power kiting page. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:27:53 -1000 From: chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) Message-Id: <793506473snx@Sound.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: > >In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > >> chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: > >> >andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > a) Competent buggiers seldom dump their kites Everyone has to stop for a rest. > b) I buggy with friends who help each other. I can be 5 miles from my friends, that means I have to wait for them to miss me and then come to me aid. > >What kite currently holds the world buggy speed record as recognised by > >the guiness book of records? > 39mph, if I recall correctly. This is widely recognised to be un-impressive. > I've only been clocked once, at 38, in the desert, and I know that it wasn't > a fast run. It isn't entirely surprising that the manufacturer who went to > the trouble of setting up all the official stuff saw their product take the > flag. I have little doubt that Flexi, Cobra, Lynn or Nop could smash it if > they were prepared to sink the time, effort and money into setting up the > event. It may not be officialy recognised, but I have no reason to disbelieve > the 80kmh (or there-abouts) that was clocked by radar in Australia some time > ago. Sorry to shatter you illusions or to change your opinion of anyone but.... the record is not held by Modulus or any other of Spiders kites! > >Heck let me spell it out. EVERY NATIONALLY ADVERTISED RACE IN THE > >UK DURING 1993 WAS WON BY A CERTAIN 4 LINE TRACTION SYSTEM. > >No matter who organised and who did or didn't turn up. > > Eh? Do you mean 1993 or 1994? I don't remember 1993. I assume you made a > typo and intended 1994. I meant 94 > > I can think of 20 such races: > > There were 6 at Pembrey. It's the result of all SIX(FIVE) races that count to give a result for the EVENT not individual races. Had the BBC race been 3 heats Mike shaw would of beat me. > There were 6 at . In my first ever race, I was late You were late at pembrey, weston and Blackpool as far as I recall. > At the British Buggy Thingy, there were two races. At the solo race, you > followed a successful escape from the starting tangle with a flaw-less three > laps If I was using any other I kite I wouldn't of had the control! > At the tandem, however, I seem to recall that the > Modulus was somewhat embarassing. Whoops I forgot that, besides I don't count it as it's not a one on one event :-) > I have a strong suspicion that your stats for the PKA events will be even more > impressive next year. I fully expect Modulus to take the top three positions > in all races, but don't be too quick to attribute it to the performance of > the equipment - look first at the number of people from the mainstream buggy > and kite world who are turning their backs on the "Make cheques payable > to Spider" PKA. All that's changed now. PKA is no longer run by Mick a commitee was elected at Gwithian. Mike Shaw is now on the commitee. I would love to see representatives form Flexifoil/Lynn racing. > > In the end, it all comes down to personal preference. I hope that you find > someone to pay 550quid for your used Modulus (presumably, so that you can > spend even *more* money on a newer one?). Feel free to tell us all how > wonderful you think it is. In my humble opinion, however, it is the worst > combination of performance and price available. In my opinion, however, it is the best combination of performance and price available. The results speak for themselves. Will you be at the race this comming weekend? O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O | Duct tape is like the Force: | | It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the Universe together. | O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O |InterNet - Chris@Sound.Demon.Co.Uk| QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM |Chris Lamb| O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:37:59 -1000 From: chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) Message-Id: <793600679snx@Sound.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article pbc@ufl.edu (Philip Chase) writes: > In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > >From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) > >Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case > >Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:48:28 GMT > > (much deleted) > > (Much deleted about a kites ability to go upwind) I've allways felt that the Modulus holds a better line upwind (close reach) then most other kites. the main reason due to the choices of kite area. EG in a given wind range a 5msq Peel may well out perform 5.3msq of Modulus but if the wind picks up the peel will be over powered and unable to beat up wind sufficently most peel fliers would stick with the 5msq and be slightly overpowered (hence a loss in upwind performance) rather then change to a 2.5msq Peel and be underpowered. With a Modulus changing down to 4, 4.3 or 4.8msq would be a big advantage. Most kites will out perform its rivals when the wind is suited to it. with a kite that is scalable in 30 sq. cm intervals you allways have the right sized kite WITH you (in bag on rear of buggy) > > So what is so great about speed again? Is it the exagerated abrasions > that will leave quality scars you can show off at next buggy event? Or maybe > it's the fear it induces in your passenger when you're doing tandem? Is it > the complete loss of steering and braking control on beach sand? I once > slid 40 meters (in the buggy) in a failed attempt at jibing somewhere around > 30 mph. My personal favorite is the stinging sensation of the water on > your legs going through a run-out above about 25mph. Speed is the easist way to measure a buggy kites performance. The people that knock the Modulus agree that the idea is good but claim it doesn't perform. any one that has taken the time to use the kite and learn it's advantages relizes it's not just the performance but its ease of use eg. Launching/packing away Changing sizes Landing and staking down for rests socializing Ability to easily kill the kite when in trouble > > If someone knows of a kite that can point as high into the wind as a > Peel please let me know. I would love to try it. Try a Modulus! (Try to get it for an hour or two, it's not a rev,quad.force10 and requires "getting used to" or "relearning" your techniques. Also experiencing a few size changes as the wind changes will really sell you on the idea. If you get too the point when you start thinking: "WOW that was fast, now if I could just hold onto another 1/2 metre......" > Philip Chase Check out the Power Kiting Web Page > pbc@ufl.edu http://grove.circa.ufl.edu/~pbc/powerkite.html > 904-378-6893 Have any good power kiting info? I would > FAX: 904-392-3760 like to put it on the power kiting page. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Can you scan? I'll send you a Modulus catalogue :-) O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O | Duct tape is like the Force: | | It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the Universe together. | O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O |InterNet - Chris@Sound.Demon.Co.Uk| QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM |Chris Lamb| O----------------------------------O----------------------------O----------O = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 16:27:51 -1000 From: pbc@ufl.edu (Philip Chase) Message-Id: Organization: CIRCA, University of Florida Subject: Re: Peter Lynn wins court case In article <793600679snx@Sound.demon.co.uk> chris@sound.demon.co.uk (Chris Lamb) writes: >I've allways felt that the Modulus holds a better line upwind (close reach) >then most other kites. the main reason due to the choices of kite area. >EG in a given wind range a 5msq Peel may well out perform 5.3msq of Modulus >but if the wind picks up the peel will be over powered and unable to beat up >wind sufficently most peel fliers would stick with the 5msq and be slightly >overpowered (hence a loss in upwind performance) rather then change to a >2.5msq Peel and be underpowered. With a Modulus changing down to 4, 4.3 or >4.8msq would be a big advantage. Well, here's a funny story. One day I went to the beach with some friends for surf sand and (for me) some buggying. The wind was about 40-45 degrees off the water. I had at my disposal a F10 4.4 and a 10m2 UL Peel. It appeared the wind was right for the F10, so I put it up. I did a short run downwind and then back into the wind. All seemed well so I took off for a long run downwind because that's where the room was. Minutes later I jibed to head upwind and, much to my chagrin, I could make no progress. I could move forward, but I couldn't make significant progress upwind before I had to jibe again. The beach bends a little bit in this area and I had passed the bend. I new that I was beat, so I packed the kite and started walking. I passed my friends who and followed me on a walk. Their feet were serving them far better than my kite served me. After an embarrassingly long walk, I made it back to my gear. Not one to give up so easily, I switched to the 10m2 Peel confident that it would return me home I took off again downwind. At more than twice the area I needed, it was a bit beastly, but manageable. I quickly passed the spot where I had previously met my demise and pushed on northward. A minute after that I blew past my friends who had continued on their. I continued until the beach had curved even more than it had before. I finally chickened out and jibed. I found that even with all this power, I could hold a line and return to my starting point. All I had to do was throttle my speed to about 16kph and the kite would not slide me. So I have to ask, what feature in the Modulus allows you to "zip on some more efficiency" when you are running low? No Modulus configuration could have gotten me out of my predicament unless it could match the edge efficiency of my Peel. Certainly if I had had an 7.5m or 5m sail I would have been able to move faster, but that is why I am interested in the zip-tip technology available in the newer Peels. Then I I'll be able to blow past the Modulus fliers at 25-30 kph while they go nowhere on the narrow beach. :-) You see, it's not that I don't enjoy speed, it's just that it is not the primary goal. The primary goal is to buggy. If I am blessed it will be with friends of a like mind. Maybe we can play tag, ball, or do some baton passing. Maybe we'll do some sparring as we travel the beaches, fields and lake beds. And perhaps with all of that we'll all be going really fast. That is what I seek. Philip Philip Chase Check out the Power Kiting Web Page pbc@ufl.edu http://grove.ufl.edu/~pbc/kite/powerkite.html 904-378-6893 Have any good power kiting info? I would FAX: 904-392-3760 like to put it on the power kiting page. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =