Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 03:29:49 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: Peter Lynn Subject: Letter from Peter Lynn 105 ALFORD FOREST ROAD, ASHBURTON, NEW ZEALAND, 29 SEPTEMBER 1993. KITE DESIGN COPIES; AN OPEN LETTER FROM PETER LYNN. I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE EMERGING TENDANCY IN THE KITE WORLD FOR SUCCESSFUL DESIGNS TO BE RIPPED OFF WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OR RECOGNITION OF THE LEGAL RIGHTS OF THE ORIGINATOR. COPIERS ARE DOING SERIOUS LONG TERM DAMAGE TO OUR INDUSTRY BECAUSE WITHOUT SOME UNCHALLENGED PERIOD FOR SOLE USE OF NEW IDEAS, INNOVATORS WILL QUITE SIMPLY GO ON STRIKE. WITHOUT INNOVATION OUR INDUSTRY WILL CERTAINLY DIE. FOR ME PERSONALLY, ONE OF THE MOST DISTRESSING ASPECTS OF THE CURRENT ANARCHY IS HAVING KITES THAT ARE NOT OF MY MANUFACTURE RETURNED TO ME. MANY "PEEL" COPIES I HAVE SEEN ARE OF POOR QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE. WHETHER OR NOT IT HAS BEEN THE INTENT OF TRADERS DEALING IN COPIED PRODUCTS TO PASS THESE OFF AS ORIGINALS, SOME CUSTOMERS AT LEAST HAVE BELIEVED COPIES THEY HAVE PURCHASED ARE ORIGINAL "PETER LYNN" KITES. ORIGINALS HAVE A "PETER LYNN", "VLIEGER OP" OR "WOLKENSTURMER" ( OUR OFFICIAL EUROPEAN LICENSEES ) LABEL SEWN IN AND THE ABSENCE OF SUCH A LABEL IS GROUNDS FOR DOUBT. IT NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT THET COPY PRODUCTS ARE PARASITIC IN THAT THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE VERY CONSIDERABLE RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT EXPENSES OF INNOVATION AND FREQUENTLY TRADE ON THE NAME AND REPUTATION OF THE ORIGINAL TO GENERATE SALES WITHOUT FAIRLY SHARING THE ADVERTISING AND PROMOTIONAL COSTS. I THANK ALL KITEFLIERS WHO HAVE OFFERED THEIR SUPPORT AND FOR THE FINANCIAL COMMITMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN OFFERED. WE INTEND TO WORK TOWARDS SATISFACTORY LEGAL RESOLUTIONS WITH MANUFACTURERS, DISTRIBUTORS AND RETAILERS WHO HANDLE COMMERCIAL QUANTITIES OF COPIED `PEELS' AND ETC. IN THE FIRST EXAMPLE, PETER LYNN LTD ( NEW ZEALAND ) AND PETER LYNN INTERNATIONAL ( NETHERLANDS ) HAVE INITIATED LEGAL ACTION TO PROTECT OUR RIGHTS IN HOLLAND. PETER LYNN. ASHBURTON. NEW ZEALAND. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 06:26:39 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) Message-Id: <118450@hydra.gatech.EDU> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Letter from Peter Lynn In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE EMERGING TENDANCY IN THE KITE WORLD FOR >SUCCESSFUL DESIGNS TO BE RIPPED OFF WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OR >RECOGNITION OF THE LEGAL RIGHTS OF THE ORIGINATOR. OK, we've all had a chance to read Peter's comment's and would just like to add that I throughly agree. While it may be acceptable to make a copy of a commercial kite for your own PRIVATE use, to do same and then turn around and sell such is DISREPUTABLE and does harm to the sport in general. PS: I don't know why anybody would want to copy a kite anyway. Sure, study the design and adopt what detailing you like, but copy a commercial kite? WHY? Just my two cents worth. -- Steve Cseplo |A| The Mad Hata sc5@prism.gatech.edu |K| AKA Region 4 Director |A| "Hey, mon...Tako Kichi!" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 13:06:35 -1000 From: mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <751269995snx@murder.demon.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: Letter from Peter Lynn In article <118450@hydra.gatech.EDU> sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) writes: > In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > > >I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE EMERGING TENDANCY IN THE KITE WORLD FOR > >SUCCESSFUL DESIGNS TO BE RIPPED OFF WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OR > >RECOGNITION OF THE LEGAL RIGHTS OF THE ORIGINATOR. > > OK, we've all had a chance to read Peter's comment's and would > just like to add that I throughly agree. While it may be acceptable > to make a copy of a commercial kite for your own PRIVATE use, > to do same and then turn around and sell such is DISREPUTABLE > and does harm to the sport in general. > Yup, I agree too. > PS: I don't know why anybody would want to copy a kite anyway. > Sure, study the design and adopt what detailing you like, > but copy a commercial kite? WHY? This raises the ever - thorny issue of 'variation'. At what point does one design become a 'new' design ? Is this yet another 'look and feel' war lurking in the wings ( sic ! ) of the kiting industry ? If you are not confident about your ability to *vary* a design and still have it work ( let alone designing one from scratch ), making an exact copy makes sense. It won't be entirely unique - but it will still be *yours* in a way that a bought kite never can be. It also requires less thought. By way of analogy, consider why people should follow the instructions in cookery books ? There are also less sophisticated reasons - I'm sure there are people out there who like the idea of being seen flying really expensive kites, or even stacks of really expensive kites, without actually spending the money ! > > Just my two cents worth. > Cheap at the price ! Mark de Roussier ************************************ Final thoughts, as breath is taken, Fall to rhythm, and the Edge of pure obsession, Resting in that wind blown cradle, Nothing moves, the world is still... ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:53:19 -1000 From: zcmh20@lon.amoco.com (Colin Hawke) Message-Id: Organization: Amoco (UK) Exploration Company Subject: Re: Letter from Peter Lynn In article 118450@hydra.gatech.EDU, sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) writes: >In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >PS: I don't know why anybody would want to copy a kite anyway. > Sure, study the design and adopt what detailing you like, > but copy a commercial kite? WHY? > >Just my two cents worth. > > I might start off with that I also totally agree with Peter's comment. But I will tell you the main reason why I have copied a few kites. Kites are a lot more expensive in the UK and I often like to fly stacks (Revs and Flexifoils), there is no way I could afford to buy 4 six foot flexi's and 4 Rev II's and still have money left to get other kites as well. So I buy a kite and if I like it and want to fly a stack I'd make the others. I would never sell them - Anyway I'm a pretty bad on the sewing machine so nobody would wanna buy em anyway !! Nothing wrong in that is there ? After all I have spent a lot of money in kite shops in the last few years believe me. Colin (who wishes he had more money for his kiting and paragliding). --- -- | Colin Hawke | cmhawke@amoco.com | 081-849-7389 | | Amoco (UK) Exploration Company, London, England | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:55:30 -1000 From: Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) Message-Id: <9310221955.AA09063@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Letter from Peter Lynn Colin Hawke writes: -] Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 08:53:19 GMT -] From: zcmh20@lon.amoco.com (Colin Hawke) -] Subject: Re: Letter from Peter Lynn -] -] In article 118450@hydra.gatech.EDU, sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) writes: -] >In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: -] -] >PS: I don't know why anybody would want to copy a kite anyway. -] > Sure, study the design and adopt what detailing you like, -] > but copy a commercial kite? WHY? -] > -] >Just my two cents worth. -] -] I might start off with that I also totally agree with Peter's comment. -] -] But I will tell you the main reason why I have copied a few kites. -] Kites are a lot more expensive in the UK and I often like to fly -] stacks (Revs and Flexifoils), there is no way I could afford to buy -] 4 six foot flexi's and 4 Rev II's and still have money left to -] get other kites as well. So I buy a kite and if I like it and want to -] fly a stack I'd make the others. I would never sell them - Anyway I'm -] a pretty bad on the sewing machine so nobody would wanna buy em anyway !! -] -] Nothing wrong in that is there ? After all I have spent -] a lot of money in kite shops in the last few years believe me. -] -] Colin (who wishes he had more money for his kiting and paragliding). -] I believe (my 2 cents worth) that Colin and Andrew are talking about a different kind of copying than Peter refers to in his letter (see attached). Peter is concerned about people making rip-off kites with the purpose of selling them. This obviously cuts into the originators potential sales. Also, if the copy is not as good as the original its can hurt the reputation of the kite -- which hurts the sales potential of the kite. I fully support Peter in his actions AGAINST people that rip-off anothers kite design for the purpose of selling the finished product. Colin mentions that he has made copies of kites for his own personal use. I don't know about the laws in the UK, but in the US this is permissable as long as you don't sell the copied kite. This kind of copy (for personal use) is usually just the prelude to creative designs of an orignal nature. As long as you don't tell everybody that your copy is an original (thereby hurting th reputation of the orignators kite) I see no problem with THIS KIND of copying. Darrin "Who made his own copy of a kite many years ago and decided it was easier to buy the commercial kite than copy it!" -] Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:29:49 GMT -] From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) -] Subject: Letter from Peter Lynn -] -] KITE DESIGN COPIES; AN OPEN LETTER FROM PETER LYNN. -] -] I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE EMERGING TENDANCY IN THE KITE WORLD FOR -] SUCCESSFUL DESIGNS TO BE RIPPED OFF WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OR -] RECOGNITION OF THE LEGAL RIGHTS OF THE ORIGINATOR. -] -] IT NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT THET COPY PRODUCTS ARE PARASITIC IN -] THAT THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE VERY CONSIDERABLE RESEARCH AND -] DEVELOPMENT EXPENSES OF INNOVATION AND FREQUENTLY TRADE ON THE -] NAME AND REPUTATION OF THE ORIGINAL TO GENERATE SALES WITHOUT -] FAIRLY SHARING THE ADVERTISING AND PROMOTIONAL COSTS. -] -] PETER LYNN. ASHBURTON. NEW ZEALAND. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 05:57:04 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Letter from Peter Lynn >I believe (my 2 cents worth) that Colin and Andrew are talking about a >different kind of copying than Peter refers to in his letter (see attached). >Peter is concerned about people making rip-off kites with the purpose of >selling them. Yes Darrin, from what I can gather, kiteing has hit the big time, we're talking about serious money, international organisations and expensive lawyers. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Car: +44 831 527 614 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =