Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:07:29 -1000 From: Dave Neumeier Message-Id: Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Buggy Lines Two Questions: Buggy line length- What length of lines do people use on quad-foils when buggying? I'm using 75', which seems to work okay, but I've heard of people going as short as 35'. I'm sure this will improve response, but are there other advantages or disadvantages? Sleeving big lines- I got my Sky Tiger 26 with a set of 300# lines for the top and 150# lines for the bottom. I used the same sleeving on both sets of lines. The sleeving barely fit over the 300# lines. I called Into the Wind and tried to get some of their sleeving made for such lines, but they said that it's not really sleeving and has a core. ??? So my question is what sleeving should I use, should I use any, or should I do something like pig tails? Thanks very much ********************************************************* * Greetings from behind the redwood curtain; Arcata, CA * * Dave Neumeier don1@axe.humboldt.edu :) * ********************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:02:47 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <48be7n$9kk@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: Re: Buggy Lines Dave Neumeier wrote: > >Two Questions: > >Buggy line length- What length of lines do people use on quad-foils when >buggying? I'm using 75', which seems to work okay, but I've heard of >people going as short as 35'. I'm sure this will improve response, but >are there other advantages or disadvantages? I have used 25 foot lines on a quad25. It was really nice in really strong winds; the kite was really quick, getting it out of the real power. >Sleeving big lines- I got my Sky Tiger 26 with a set of 300# lines for >the top and 150# lines for the bottom. I used the same sleeving on both >sets of lines. The sleeving barely fit over the 300# lines. I called >Into the Wind and tried to get some of their sleeving made for such >lines, but they said that it's not really sleeving and has a core. ??? >So my question is what sleeving should I use, should I use any, or should Outdoor shops like REI and Sport Chalet carry a line rated at 450lbs with a core (I think the core is spectra). The core can be easily taken out to provide a large sleeve. As this is quite heavy, I think some mail order places can sell regular Dacron by the foot (unless you already have some). I find the 250lb dacron to be excellent for 300lb spectra. You might check Beckys or The Kite Studio for dacron by the foot. See you at a buggy event. Steve Bateman bateman@mail.sdsu.edu Flying along. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:30:16 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Buggy Lines Dave Neumeier writes: >Sleeving big lines- [...] The sleeving barely fit over the 300# lines. >I called >Into the Wind and tried to get some of their sleeving made for such >lines, but they said that it's not really sleeving and has a core. ??? The purpose of sleeving is to cushon the knot, so that it doesn't cut into it's self. You can do this cushoning in whatever way is convenient. Some stores have a stock of core-less braided line which is ideal for sleeving, and sell it as such, but I'll use whatever happens to be handy and suitable. Just because you bought your bootlaces from a cobbler rather than a kite store doesn't mean that they aren't good for sleeving your lines. Things to look for: Snug fit. Too slack and the line is more inclined to slide through, cauding ugly bunching of the sleeving and unequal lines. Soft material. Some Dacron braids (particularly coloured ones) seem to be very hard and abrasive and I've had problems with abrasion inside the knot causing failure. Core. Most heavier lines are braided round a core, so as ITW have suggested, you just remove the core from a heavier line when you want to sleeve thicker Spectra. If I'm stuck in the field, I might either: Use an additional cushion line. Just lie a line parallel to the Spectra and carefuly tie the knot in both, asif it were one line. Double the line. I'll tie an un-sleeved line, but I'll double back the last foot, and tie the knot in the doubled line (just as above - asif it were a single thickness). Again, the additional line helps provide cushioning. Please note that sleeving is a religious issue. There are those who will tell you that it is a complete waste of time and effort. I am trying to offer advice to those who wish to sleeve without restarting the argument as to whether or not it is a worthwhile practice. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:02:36 -1000 From: cjsigal@netcom.com (Chuck Sigal) Message-Id: Organization: Berkeley Buggy Bums Subject: Re: Buggy Lines Dave Neumeier wrote: >Two Questions: >Buggy line length- What length of lines do people use on quad-foils when >buggying? I'm using 75', which seems to work okay, but I've heard of >people going as short as 35'. I'm sure this will improve response, but >are there other advantages or disadvantages? Here in Berkeley most of us buggy with 4-line foils; Quadrafoils, Quad-Tracs, or (my fav.) Quad-Trac Profoils. I buggied on 75' for the longest time wondering what longer lines would be like. 'Till one day I tried 100' on my 3m Profoil. "Wow" he said "I think I like this." So I made up a set for my 5m. "Yes" he said "I like this a lot!" I've got line sets of 50', 75'and 100'. Now I'm thinking about 150' for Ivanpah next week. Most of the local buggiers are flying 75' with one who insists that something like 35-40 is better. HA. In winds where he needs a five I can fly my three and go faster. He likes the improved response. But I think a 3 on 100' turns at least as quickly as a 5 on 40'. The advantage to longer lines, IMHO, is more and cleaner wind aloft, and a bigger window in the power zone. Care to buy any slightly used 50' or 75' line sets? :-)) >So my question is what sleeving should I use, should I use any, or should >I do something like pig tails? Whoa, hotly debated question here. Should you, shouldn't you, hell I don't know. I tend to accept the logic that breaks not occuring AT the knot can hardly be attributed to the knot. I have flown un-sleeved line and broken it though never close enough to the knot that I'd be convinced that the knot contributed to the break. I've also flown sleeved line and broken that. So... None the less all of my current line-sets are sleaved. (so much for logic) Try some dacron. I don't know 150, 200lb? If you can get your line through it it's good. Pig tails? Hm, I don't know from pig tails. I use lark's heads to attach lines to handles - lines to bridles. The larks don't seem to mind. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat, and wrong.| | -- H. L. Mencken | | Chuck Sigal | | Albany, CA, USA Voice/Fax: +1.510.527.3547 e-mail: cjsigal@netcom.com | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:18:05 -1000 From: mlwdr Message-Id: Organization: Diagnostics QA-RA Subject: Re: Buggy Lines Seems to me that ... Higher/longer would be better because you'd be more up in the cleaner air. One would not want to be in ones' own way with shorter lines or at least too short lines. Why travel all the way out to a dry lake on a quest for pure clean air and then muck it up with ones own backwash ! Even the cross bracing wires on a biplane contributes significantly to the drag of the machine. You'll just have to strike balance between line drag from being too long and your own tendency to make dirty air. Which is differnet form just blowing smoke ;-) -- Bob Neitzke CAD/MGR, Bayer Corporation, Elkhart Site work 219-262-7023 neitzke@se01.elk.bayer.com home 616-663-2833 birfofplay@aol.com FAX 219-262-7966 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 19:09:44 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <48jpqo$roa@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: Re: Buggy Lines mlwdr wrote: > > Seems to me that ... > > Higher/longer would be better because you'd be more up in the > cleaner air. > > One would not want to be in ones' own way with shorter lines > or at least too short lines. > > Why travel all the way out to a dry lake on a quest for pure > clean air and then muck it up with ones own backwash ! > > Even the cross bracing wires on a biplane contributes > significantly to the drag of the machine. > > You'll just have to strike balance between line drag from > being too long and your own tendency to make dirty air. > Which is differnet form just blowing smoke ;-) > > -- > Bob Neitzke CAD/MGR, Bayer Corporation, Elkhart Site > work 219-262-7023 neitzke@se01.elk.bayer.com > home 616-663-2833 birfofplay@aol.com > FAX 219-262-7966 > > Acually, I found using the 25 foot lines for the buggy wasn't bad in the dirty air department. It was on a quad25 in about 25-30mph winds. The kite was out in front, at the edge during the tacks and showed no dirty air. I suppose that normal static flying would show signs of dirty air. I would only use these length lines for a quad lined kite due to its manuverability. 6 days till the turkey that can buggy. Steve Bateman bateman@mail.sdsu.edu Flying along. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 14:59:23 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <48jb5b$hst@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buggy Lines In article , Dave Neumeier writes: >Two Questions: > >Buggy line length- What length of lines do people use on quad-foils when >buggying? I'm using 75', which seems to work okay, but I've heard of >people going as short as 35'. I'm sure this will improve response, but >are there other advantages or disadvantages? If you have the space, long is better. Long is also better if the wind is hard to get to. In general short works well only when you have high smooth wind. I fly my peels on almost 150' of line except when it is real windy at which time i can use a bigger than normal peel on short(50')lines. The same goes for quads but line weight plays a factor as you have the two extra. Since i only use the smaller foils these days(26' and smaller) i'm using 200# on top and 80# on bottom. I keep waiting for the bottoms to fail, but they haven't. My longest set of quad lines is just over 100'. Where you buggy plays a role, but i buggy everywhere and anywhere i can and have not had a problem, except getting beat occasionally, sigh. > >Sleeving big lines- I got my Sky Tiger 26 with a set of 300# lines for >the top and 150# lines for the bottom. I used the same sleeving on both >sets of lines. The sleeving barely fit over the 300# lines. I called >Into the Wind and tried to get some of their sleeving made for such >lines, but they said that it's not really sleeving and has a core. ??? >So my question is what sleeving should I use, should I use any, or should >I do something like pig tails? > > Travo!? Have never sleeved, no need. Tie an overhand knot to make your loop, followed with another overhand on the line with the bitter end, followed with a keeper knot. No worries. If breakages occurs at the ends shorten lines. Always repair breaks in the middle with the no knot method. #2 dean of aoxomoxoa who can't wait to get to El Mirage!!!!!! Will you be there? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =