Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 08:08:30 -1000 From: Message-Id: <313jeu$324@nic.dot.state.mn.us> Organization: Minnesota Pollution Control Agency Subject: Tri-sail Delta Over the weekend, I build myself a Tri-Sail Delta following the instruction in book "Kiteworks" by Max Eden. The sail material I used is not ripstop. I found those ripstop were too expensive for my fist try. I got some "second" nylon cloth in a local fabic sotre. (I met quite stare from ladies in the store. But that is another story. :-)). I spend almost a whole day hide out in my basement in front sewing machine. When the kite was completed, I was beside myself. I couldn't believe that I just made a kite! (well, I did get a lot help form my mother-in-law. By the way, I found out that is a great way to get to know your in-law.) Anyway, the kite was great. I had since flown it twice. The tri-sail rises up very gental. However, after the kite have gained some altitude, it will suddently take a dive. The sail seem have been collapsed. If I left enouth line out in time, the kite some time recover itself. But, it often had dived too low to recover. I crashed it sever time on to the out field during a little league game. Anybody know why the kite would take a sudden dive? It doesn't seem happen on other delta that I flown. Any comment on this topic? Good wind. hsu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuan-Ming Hsu yuan-ming.hsu@pca.state.mn.us Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (GWSWPD) Phone: (612) 297-2716 520 LaFayette Road Fax: (612) 296-9707 ST. Paul, MN 55155-4194 "Mutant Ninja Geologist" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 08:36:39 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: Organization: Harvard University OIT/NSD Subject: Re: Tri-sail Delta In article <313jeu$324@nic.dot.state.mn.us>, writes: >Over the weekend, I build myself a Tri-Sail Delta following the instruction in >book "Kiteworks" by Max Eden. The sail material I used is not ripstop. I >found those ripstop were too expensive for my fist try. I got some "second" >nylon cloth in a local fabic sotre. (I met quite stare from ladies in the >store. But that is another story. :-)). I spend almost a whole day hide >out in my basement in front sewing machine. When the kite was completed, I was >beside myself. I couldn't believe that I just made a kite! >(well, I did get a lot help form my mother-in-law. By the way, I found out >that is a great way to get to know your in-law.) Welcome to the club! Even after making hundreds of kites, I still enjoy taking a new kite out fly. It is really a thrill to see a kite rise in the wind. First, a few general recommendations. Spend a little more money and get kite fabric from a kite shop or via mail order (I recommend Hang-em High Fabrics). You will find that this fabric is easier to handle than fabric from a fabric store. >The tri-sail rises up very gental. However, after the kite have gained >some altitude, it will suddently take a dive. The sail seem have been >collapsed. If I left enouth line out in time, the kite some time recover >itself. But, it often had dived too low to recover. I crashed it sever time on >to the out field during a little league game. Anybody know why the kite would >take a sudden dive? It doesn't seem happen on other delta that I flown. Any >comment on this topic? I'm not sure from your description, but I'm going to guess that your kite is crooked. This could be because you didn't quite make things even, or possibly because your fabric stretches differently on one side of the kite compared to the other. Adjusting a single line kite and making one that flies straight are not as easy as they appear. Take the experience gained from this first kite and make another. Keep your first kite so that you can look back on it later and see how much you have learned about making kites over time... -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 07:29:06 -1000 From: Message-Id: <318pt2$m98@nic.dot.state.mn.us> Organization: Minnesota Pollution Control Agency Subject: Re: Tri-sail Delta In article , sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: > >Welcome to the club! Even after making hundreds of kites, I still >enjoy taking a new kite out fly. It is really a thrill to see a kite >rise in the wind. > Thank you for the encouragement, Marty. >First, a few general recommendations. Spend a little more money and >get kite fabric from a kite shop or via mail order (I recommend >Hang-em High Fabrics). You will find that this fabric is easier to >handle than fabric from a fabric store. > I've found out that sawing fabric is not as easy as it looks. It is a lot of neck breaking work. What do you use for holding the fabric when it's been saw? I notice other using pins to hold down the fabic. Do you kite makers use somthing different? I got that impression from read books. I guess you don't want to poke a lot of holes on your kite, right? > >Adjusting a single line kite and making one that flies straight are >not as easy as they appear. Take the experience gained from this first >kite and make another. Keep your first kite so that you can look back >on it later and see how much you have learned about making kites over >time... > You said it, man. hsu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuan-Ming Hsu yuan-ming.hsu@pca.state.mn.us Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (GWSWPD) Phone: (612) 297-2716 520 LaFayette Road Fax: (612) 296-9707 ST. Paul, MN 55155-4194 "Mutant Ninja Geologist" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 19:54:30 -1000 From: bernhard.malle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com (Bernhard Malle) Message-Id: <9407290554.AA14863@dagobert> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Tri-sail Delta > >Welcome to the club! Even after making hundreds of kites, I still > >enjoy taking a new kite out fly. It is really a thrill to see a kite > >rise in the wind. Hundreds of kites? Wow... Even after making about 30 kites, it is really a thrill to make a new one and when testing the new one, thinking about, which kite to make next... My sewing machine never gets cold.... And the kites always get bigger and bigger...... :-) > What do you use for holding the fabric when it's been saw? I mostly just use my hands to hold the fabric in place. The only opportunity when I use (water soluable(sp?) ) glue is when I have to sew a complicated applique to the fabirc, like a circle. Even by pressing the applique very hard together, I always end up with a derivation of some mm, which afterwards show up. > I notice other using pins to hold down the fabic. Do you kite makers use > somthing different? I got that impression from read books. I guess you don't > want to poke a lot of holes on your kite, right? The holes are no problem, I think, but pins just do not hold the fabric so exactly in place as you need it. Marking a line on both pieces and trying to hold the pieces with the hand in place is much more accurate. imho. But if it comes to precision, I think Marty can supply us with more information. I have seen some fancy stitches on the Katana-II of Simo. I wonder, how accurate you must sew, that those curved zig-zag stitches are always at the right place... BTW Those curved zig-zag stitches, do they have any practical reason? Are they better or is just for cosmetic reasons that you use them, Marty? I mean they DO look nice! Bernhard +------------------------------------------+ | Bernhard Malle | | Bernhard.Malle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com | | Ulm, Germany | +------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:49:57 -1000 From: mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <775446597snx@murder.demon.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: Tri-sail Delta In article <313jeu$324@nic.dot.state.mn.us> hsu_y@pca.state.mn.us writes: [stuff deleted ] > > The tri-sail rises up very gental. However, after the kite have gained > some altitude, it will suddently take a dive. The sail seem have been > collapsed. If I left enouth line out in time, the kite some time recover > itself. But, it often had dived too low to recover. The usual circumstance in which a normal delta behaves in this way is when it 'goes over' i.e. starts to fly directly overhead, then goes behind the flyer. A moderately heavy tail, which causes the kite to fly at a smaller angle to the ground, might help with this. Is this what is happening to yours ? If it collapses before going overhead does it collapse 'tail first', or nose-dive ? In either case it could be the fore - aft balance that is wrong, requiring the towing point to be adjusted. I don't have Maxwell's book, so I'm not sure what this kite looks like - does it have a box-type center with three sails which get larger towards the top surface of the kite ? Maxwells book is known to have errors in a number of the plans, and I think I've seen a list of them somewhere, but can't recall where. -- Mark de Roussier ************************************ A nice man is a man of nasty ideas. Jonathon Swift. ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 10:31:29 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: Organization: Harvard University OIT/NSD Subject: Re: Tri-sail Delta In article <9407290554.AA14863@dagobert>, bernhard.malle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com (Bernhard Malle) writes: >> >Welcome to the club! Even after making hundreds of kites, I still >> >enjoy taking a new kite out fly. It is really a thrill to see a kite >> >rise in the wind. > >Hundreds of kites? Wow... > >Even after making about 30 kites, it is really a thrill to make a new one >and when testing the new one, thinking about, which kite to make next... >My sewing machine never gets cold.... And the kites always get bigger and >bigger...... >:-) Well, being a manufacturer of stunt kites means that I make a lot of kites. These days I mostly assemble kites (I have the sails sewn by Head's Up Kites, Pam Kirk and Mike Dennis). A few hundred kites really isn't that many. I'm sure that the other manufacturer types on the net can claim larger numbers than this. >> What do you use for holding the fabric when it's been saw? > >I mostly just use my hands to hold the fabric in place. The only opportunity >when I use (water soluable(sp?) ) glue is when I have to sew a complicated >applique to the fabirc, like a circle. Even by pressing the applique very hard >together, I always end up with a derivation of some mm, which afterwards show >up. I make cardboard templates for even the simplist things. For kites that I end up mass producing, I make up more permanent templates out of masonite, thin plywood, or sheet aluminum. The templates are held in place with weights. I have a bunch of lead fishing weights, and have also used rolls of coins to hold the template down over the fabric. I then cut out the fabric with a razor knife, or with a hot knife. See the archive for more info on hot cutting. (Basically hot cutting melts/burns the fabric to cut through it.) For the panels on my stunt kites, I just make the templates so that I can lay two pieces together with the ends aligned and sew the pieces together. For applique, I've used glue, tape, and hot tacking to hold things together. I haven't done that many applique kites though, best to ask those more experienced on the net. >But if it comes to precision, I think Marty can supply us with more information. >I have seen some fancy stitches on the Katana-II of Simo. I wonder, how >accurate you must sew, that those curved zig-zag stitches are always at the >right place... After you have sewn as many kites as I have, it is pretty easy to put together a kite like the Katana-2. It is just a matter of practice. After a while you can sew and hold a conversation with someone, or talk on the phone, or listen to music, etc. When the stitches start to waver, I take a break... >BTW Those curved zig-zag stitches, do they have any practical reason? Are they >better or is just for cosmetic reasons that you use them, Marty? I mean they DO >look nice! The curved zig-zag is just for looks. A more conventional zig-zag or a straight stitch would work just as well, if not better. Now that so many of the kites that I have sewn are being stitched by Head's Up, I try to make the kites that I sew a little distinctive, hence the fancier stitching. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 07:50:23 -1000 From: Message-Id: <31jcl1$903@nic.dot.state.mn.us> Organization: Minnesota Pollution Control Agency Subject: Re: Tri-sail Delta In article <775446597snx@murder.demon.co.uk>, mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) writes: dd> >The usual circumstance in which a normal delta behaves in this way is when >it 'goes over' i.e. starts to fly directly overhead, then goes behind the >flyer. A moderately heavy tail, which causes the kite to fly at a smaller >angle to the ground, might help with this. Is this what is happening to yours >? If it collapses before going overhead does it collapse 'tail first', or >nose-dive ? In either case it could be the fore - aft balance that is wrong, >requiring the towing point to be adjusted. > Well, it divide head first. It does not go over head at all. >I don't have Maxwell's book, so I'm not sure what this kite looks like - does >it have a box-type center with three sails which get larger towards the top >surface of the kite ? Maxwells book is known to have errors in a number of >the plans, and I think I've seen a list of them somewhere, but can't recall >where. > No, it dos not have box-type center. The spine is at bottom. There is curve line sew into the sail that joints both of the wings. When the kite is in fight position, the wing curve upward. It looks like a airplene's wing. The center part of sail is pulled down by the spine. I guess that why they called it tri-sail. Max had mentioned the importance of fulcrum. After several experiment, I added wight at front of the kite. It seem did the trick. I used to make gliders. I don't know if any kite flyer use lead wight to adjust their kite. Any comments on this ? hsu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuan-Ming Hsu yuan-ming.hsu@pca.state.mn.us Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (GWSWPD) Phone: (612) 297-2716 520 LaFayette Road Fax: (612) 296-9707 ST. Paul, MN 55155-4194 "Mutant Ninja Geologist" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =