Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 14:48:30 -1000 From: wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) Message-Id: Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group Subject: to swivel or knot!? I was unfortunate in that I did not make BrianHead until after the competitions were over on Saturday, but felt very fortunate in that I was able to attend a flight school conducted by Don Tabor of TOTL Kites. He made it quite clear that he was removing all swivels and metal hardware for fastening line to his kites 1st) because it was just added weight, 2nd) lets face it, it cost more to put the swivels on! Now, I have gotten so into swivels I carry spares on my key ring. It made sense about the weight, and he shot me down before I could bring up the cost factor with his honesty. My question is... What do the rest of you folks think?? Swivel or knot? thanks jon wagner wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 18:54:35 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? In article wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) writes: >My question is... What do the rest of you folks think?? Swivel or knot? Knot. I loose swivels! Andrew -- Work: gaffer@plx.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 19:09:29 -1000 From: danr@crash.cts.com (Dan Rubesh) Message-Id: <1993Aug14.220929.2957@crash> Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? jon wagner inquires... > I was unfortunate in that I did not make BrianHead until after the > competitions were over on Saturday, but felt very fortunate in that > I was able to attend a flight school conducted by Don Tabor of TOTL > Kites. He made it quite clear that he was removing all swivels > and metal hardware for fastening line to his kites 1st) because it > was just added weight, 2nd) lets face it, it cost more to put the > swivels on! Now, I have gotten so into swivels I carry spares on > my key ring. It made sense about the weight, and he shot me down > before I could bring up the cost factor with his honesty. > > My question is... What do the rest of you folks think?? Swivel or > knot? > It seems that my preference has gone more and more towards line-to-line connections.. When I first started flying, having been a semi-commercial albacore and tuna fisherman, I was heavily into the hardware aspect of connectors with all of the snaps and swivels.. I soon discovered that they just added unneccesary weight to the 'flying' end of the lines, and cut way back on the hardware out there.. The kites that are equipped with McMahon snaps at the bridle to line interface, I'll usually leave as is, or replace with lighter McMahons. The ones that have humongous snaps/swivels get replaced with McMahons, or line cheaters right away.. As the evolution continued, I was still using swivels/snaps at the handle/strap connections, and one day while flying the 12.5 ft Flexifoil, I straightened a pair of 250# tuna snaps, and broke one.. That was the _last_ bit of hardware that I used.. It's exclusively knot-to-knot excepting the above mentioned connectors these days.. Marty's Katana uses a really slick bridle adjuster knot, and no hardware on the bridles.. Good Winds and Tight Lines! - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dan Rubesh Wind Wizard, Purveyor of UUCP: {ucsd, nosc}!crash!danr GO Stunt Kites & Accessories ARPA: crash!danr@nosc.mil FLY A P.O. Box 5747 INET: danr@crash.cts.com KITE! Ventura, CA 93005 (805) 659-5654 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 07:25:37 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Aug16.172537.15482@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? In article <1993Aug14.220929.2957@crash>, danr@crash.cts.com (Dan Rubesh) writes: >... Marty's Katana uses a really slick bridle adjuster >knot, and no hardware on the bridles.. Alas, I wish that I had made-up/figured-out the knot that I use for the bridle. It's called a prussick (sp?) knot. It's sort of a larkshead with an extra loop on it. I think that the Big Brother, Little Sister, etc., use this knot. Some people prefer snaps since they are easier for them to adjust. I find snaps (I use McMahons) and the prussick knot about equal in ease of adjustment. With Spectra Bridles, I use a McMahon snap. I can't get a Spectra loop to stay put otherwise. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 07:55:45 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <24ohn1$v2@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? In article wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) writes: [ Stuff deleted about TOTL Flight School ] >My question is... What do the rest of you folks think?? Swivel or knot? > >thanks > >jon wagner >wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu > Use a knot system! You mentioned carrying spares on your keyring. I've seen too many lines get caught or tangled in McMahon clips and swivels. Also if you compete at all, I don't think that you would want one of those swivels fail right in the middle of your performance. Yes knots will fail also, but less frequently than all that heavy hardware. Sam Ritter Pres. 5/20 Detroit = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 12:54:05 -1000 From: wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) Message-Id: Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? I really apreciate all of the input about swivels and knots, I will have to get out my big book of knots and see if I can find this prussick that Marty talks about! Well, looking in my copy of "The Ashley Book of Knots" with 7000 drawings and representing over 3900 knots by Clifford W. Ashley, I find no reference to a prussick knot! Please oh please, send instructions on this knot!??! I am afraid, that 1st I don't compete, and when i do, All the winds die out until my kites are safely stowed back in their bags! I will have to find another use for all of my big, heavy, swivels and snaps!! thanks folks, and keep those ideas headed this way! jon wagner = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 19:15:31 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? Jon Wagner (wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu) wrote: : I really apreciate all of the input about swivels and knots, I will have to get out my big book of knots and see if I can find this prussick that Marty : talks about! Well, looking in my copy of "The Ashley Book of Knots" with : 7000 drawings and representing over 3900 knots by Clifford W. Ashley, I find : no reference to a prussick knot! Please oh please, send instructions on : this knot!??! Well, I just happen to have a description of the prusik knot written up (done during the lark's head hoohah a few month's ago ). Prusik knot. You need a loop of rope and another piece of rope; it's easier to practice the prusik if the second piece is tied to something/doesn't have slack in it. Let's call this second piece the kite line. (For my application, I used a loop and the kite line; for stunt kites, ???.) The prusik is like a double lark's head. Make a u-shape in the loop, and put the u-shape under the kite line, extending a little ways beyond the kite line. Hold the "other end" of the loop, and bring it over the kite line, down through the u-shape, back under the kite line, then back over the top of the kite line, down into the u-shape, and now pull the "other end" all the way through the u-shape (so the u-shape that you first put under the kite line is now snugged up against the wraps and the kite line). Tidy up the wraps around the kite line so there's a minimum of crossing. This knot will grip when it's under tension, but is very movable when loose. I've seen the knot done with 3 wraps (I described 2 wraps). **Important note** The rope used to make the loop must be of smaller diameter than the line it is fastened to. I made loops of 200# line to use on a 250# kite line, which is well-used and stretched thin. The 200# line looked bigger in diameter, and the knots would not grip. 150# line worked. Differences in type of line (mine are all dacron) and texture may have some effect. The prusik knot was invented by a Dr. Carl Prusik in 1931, which may explain why it isn't in Ashley's book (my Ashley's has a copyright of 1944 and perhaps Ashley didn't know the knot, or, it might be under a different name -- when we discussed the lark's head I found several knot books that referred to it only as the girth hitch). Original use was in mountain climbing. Anne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * Berkeley, California | * * rock@netcom.com | * * | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 07:29:07 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Aug17.172907.2775@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? In article , rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) writes: >Prusik knot. You need a loop of rope and another piece of rope; it's >easier to practice the prusik if the second piece is tied to >something/doesn't have slack in it. Let's call this second piece the >kite line. (For my application, I used a loop and the kite line; for >stunt kites, ???.) The line is the long bridle line. Loosening the knot allows moving the loop up and down. The outhaul bridle can be lark's headed to the loop. >**Important note** The rope used to make the loop must be of >smaller diameter than the line it is fastened to. I made loops >of 200# line to use on a 250# kite line, which is well-used >and stretched thin. The 200# line looked bigger in diameter, >and the knots would not grip. 150# line worked. Differences in >type of line (mine are all dacron) and texture may have some >effect. I've used same size dacron line for the loop and the bridle. I haven't experienced any slippage with the dacron that I use. Maybe this is because the weave is a little coarse. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 06:24:41 -1000 From: gaudreau@seesrv.ako.dec.com (Joe Gaudreau {Dances with PostScript}) Message-Id: Organization: Dyslexic-U Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? Ah, knots... I love them... I'm not surprised that Ashley doesn't have the prussick knot... It's missing a few important ones. It does have a wonderful selection of historical knots though, which is why I bought it. The prussick knot is alive and well today with rock climbers... Many people carry two long lengths of 5-6mm Spectra with them (Spectra isn't just kite string - they make climbing ropes, parachute cord (right Jack?), etc). The rope is used just in case something happens during a climb and ascending the rope is the only way out... Two large prussicks are tied onto the main climbing rope - one for each piece of Spectra. A loop is tied into the ends (quite often a double figure-8). With the feet through the loops (or an alternate arrangement with the Spectra attached to the climbing harness) up you go... I have a wonderful color book, reasonably modern, on knots that makes a nice companion to Ashley. I think it's called the Morton Guide to Knots but if anyone really wants to know I can look it up when I get home. Harnesses - If anyone want a perhaps less expensive alternative to power harnesses, I might suggest looking into a climbing harness with appropriate quick release/panic snap. There are several harnesses on the market under $50. The panic snaps can be found in tack stores. Joe -=- Climb hard. Climb high. Climb climb climb. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 10:40:23 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? >Harnesses - If anyone want a perhaps less expensive alternative to power >harnesses, I might suggest looking into a climbing harness with >appropriate quick release/panic snap. There are several harnesses on >the market under $50. The panic snaps can be found in tack stores. Is there a climbing harness that has a dead-man release? Where you *stop* doing something in order to release it? If there is, please tell us about it. If not, don't use if for flying power kites (even if that is what it purports to be designed for!) Andrew -- Work: gaffer@plx.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 12:32:00 -1000 From: wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) Message-Id: Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? Thanks Ann, could you possibly give me a few book titles that would have illustrations of the prussick?? I, unfortunately, am not good at following verbal cues without visual also! thanks jon wagner = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 04:25:51 -1000 From: reich@cod.nosc.mil (Ronald S. Reich) Message-Id: <9308191425.AA01317@cod.nosc.mil> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re:: to swivel or knot!? Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 22:32:00 GMT From: wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? Sorry for butting in but I thought this could help in the discussion. 1. Make closed loop 2. Lay knot of closed and lay under line loop over line. ___________________ ___________________ | | | | | | | \ / | | | | & | Line | | | / \ | ===========================================|=|================ | | | / \ | | | | / \ | \ / \__/ \__/ \ / \ / \ / \ / & / \ \ / Wrap knot around line & inside of loop. / \ ___________________ | | | | | | | | _____________________ | __ __ | | _ _ | | _ _ | Line | / \ / \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | ==============|=========|==========|===|===|=|===|===|================== \__/ | | \__/ |_| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_| \ / & Go around 2 or 3 times / \ and then tighten all wraps. P.S. This knot is proposed for use in training Flexifoil kites when you want the stong line to run the full distance to the top kite. Still Learning and Sharing, Ron Reich = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 20:00:40 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? Jon Wagner (wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu) wrote: : Thanks Ann, could you possibly give me a few book titles that would have : illustrations of the prussick?? I, unfortunately, am not good at following : verbal cues without visual also! thanks : jon wagner (I've been away for 5 days....) Did you see Ron Reich's posting/follow-up to this thread? with the very nice series of ascii diagrams? That's a prusik knot. (thanks Ron!) A small book on climbing knots, which includes the prusik: _Knots for Climbers_ by Craig Luebben Chockstone Press, Evergreen, Colorado ISBN 0-934641-58-7 $3.95 (I think, or $4.95) about 27 knots. 39 pages. especially useful if you're using larger diameter line/rope, carabiners, webbing, putting your life on the line. Another that I've looked at in a bookstore: _The Knot Book_ by Geoffrey Budworth about $9.00. I don't have publisher or ISBN. It included the prusik knot, many more knots than the climbing book, with lots of tips on using the different knots. Marty Sasaki's favorite knot book: _Practical Fishing Knots II_ by Mark Sosin and Lefty Kreh Lyons & Burford, NY NY Anne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * Berkeley, California | * * rock@netcom.com | * * | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 04:32:11 -1000 From: wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) Message-Id: Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? Thanks Ann, for all of the great book titles. I will be hounding my favorite bookstores the rest of this day!! I spent time in my class room, as the students were doing an assignment taking steel swivel clips off and replacing them with a very thick (about 3cm) 250 lb braided nylon cord. There is probably better string out there for larksheading the bridle, but it was the best I could find in my kite bag. I am very apreciative of all the great advice I got on this thread, but you know what the clincher was?? Last week when i went to drive home, the two swivels, I have always maintained on my key ring (for spares) had tangled the keys up so much, it took me considerable time to untangle so I could unlock the car and leave. good winds anybody need alot of used swivel clips???? :) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 06:55:22 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <25o2lq$cpt@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? In article wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) writes: >I am very apreciative of all the great advice I got on this thread, but >you know what the clincher was?? Last week when i went to drive home, >the two swivels, I have always maintained on my key ring (for spares) >had tangled the keys up so much, it took me considerable time to untangle >so I could unlock the car and leave. That happens to me all the time with my KiteMate, which I have stuck on my keyring (instead of doing something sensible like attaching it to the strap of my kitebag). It gets tangled quite often and then I consider removing it, but I rather enjoy the perplexed looks people give it. It's absolutely impossible for a non-kiter to figure out what it possibly could be used for. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "When I look in the mirror, I see a little clearer/ | |SAFH Lite [tm] | I am what I am and you are you too./ Do you like | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | what you see? Do you like yourself?" --N. Cherry | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 17:23:32 -1000 From: WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) Message-Id: Organization: Novell, Inc Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? In article <25o2lq$cpt@umd5.umd.edu> jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) >Subject: Re: to swivel or knot!? >Date: 28 Aug 1993 16:55:22 GMT >In article wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) writes: > >>I am very apreciative of all the great advice I got on this thread, but >>you know what the clincher was?? Last week when i went to drive home, >>the two swivels, I have always maintained on my key ring (for spares) >>had tangled the keys up so much, it took me considerable time to untangle >>so I could unlock the car and leave. > > That happens to me all the time with my KiteMate, which I have >stuck on my keyring (instead of doing something sensible like attaching it >to the strap of my kitebag). It gets tangled quite often and then I >consider removing it, but I rather enjoy the perplexed looks people give >it. It's absolutely impossible for a non-kiter to figure out what it >possibly could be used for. > >Jeff > > > > >-- >|Jeffrey C. Burka | "When I look in the mirror, I see a little clearer/ | >|SAFH Lite [tm] | I am what I am and you are you too./ Do you like | >|jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | what you see? Do you like yourself?" --N. Cherry | > Okay, I'll bite.. what's a KiteMate? Is it one of those things you use to insert your spars into the tubing so you don't punch a hole in the sail? Wes -------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Voss WVOSS@NOVELL.COM Disclaimer: These are just my opinions, and no one else's! Views expressed in email messages are not necessarily those of Novell. ______________________________________________________________ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =