Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 01:33:22 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: The PKA and Modulus Several people have asked about my unsympathetic responses to any mention of Modulus, The PKA or Mick Parsons. Maybe it's time to explain. I'm not overly keen on 4-line soft kites, but that's a personal preference, (doesn't suit my style...) not something to get worked up about. There are some excelent examples around these days, just look at the Tigers and the Quad-pro. It's not just prejudice about the number of lines. There are people in the kite industry, with whom I have strong disagreements. I disagree strongly, for example, with the way that Joost from Flexifoil promote kite jumping, but I keep this carefuly compartmentalised and have no hesitation in reccommending some of their excellent kites (Flexies have one of the best L/D ratios around and *nothing* flies faster...). It's not just a personality clash. Let's have a look then. I'll start with the kite. It must be said that the modulus incorporates some good innovations. One of the major problems is that there is no such thing as the right size of traction kite. When it's blowing a gale, you want something small, so that you stand a chance of ending the day in the same county as your buggy. When you're in the field wondering what direction the wind is actualy blowing, you want something bigger. There are various ways of tackling this problem: 1) Build lots of different sizes kites, for different amounts of wind. This is an obvious, low-tech solution. It has the advantage that you can tune the size, shape and performance of the individual kites to the most appropriate combination for the conditions it is intended for. It has the severe disadvantage that it soon becomes very cosly. 2) Fly different numbers of kites. If you flexi-stack is too powerful, take a few off. This has the advantage that you can start with a small stack which will suffice on windy days, and build up gradualy to something bigger - small initial outlay, without waste. 3) Change the size of the kite. I've seen three different ways to do this: a) Chop the kite into sections and zip together the sections you want to fly. - the Modulus idea. According to an advert in the Kiteflier, this scheme is patented, but requests for information on the patent, and careful searching through recent kite-related patents have revealed nothing. I think that they are bluffing. b) Put ties on adjacent cells, and tie some cells together (stuffing the excess fabric inside the next cell. c) Build a zip into the top and bottom skin such that the last few cells on each top can be stuffed inside a cell and sealed up. - Peter Lynn's Zip-tips. 4) Change the kite automatically in flight. This has been done in 3 ways: a) Twist-off tips (correct name?). This is similar to the way that sails are designed to twist at the top under load, in order to reduce the effective sail area. A framed-kite technique, well explored in stunt kite design, but under-developed for traction kites b) Concertina Reefing - Where the effective sail area is significantly reduced under load. Familiar on the Reefing Peels. c) Angle of attack reefing. The technique used on the Lynn Pauas. This has the potential to be developed to a 3-stage system, where from a neutral, middle position, it will respond in one way to low-pull, to increase the grunt, but can also react in a different way to over-pull, using a reflex profile to reduce the lift and drag provided. So Modulus has adopted the approach that you buy one kite and zip it into the configuration that you desire. A reasonable solution. Better than buying an entire range of quadrifoils. Not as sophisticated as something that changes automatically in flight to deliver appropriate performance, but I don't try to do that with the kites that I'm building either. They turn it into a neat package too. A complete kit comes with a bag to attatch to the back of your buggy, so that you can take the spare bits you're not using with you (and of course, it's a quad, so you can launch it straight out of the bag...). Scared of going out for miles across Ivanpah on a blasting reach, only to find that the wind drops and you've got to walk back? No problem if you've got more kite in the bag to add on to give you size required to find the power in the gentle desert breeze. On the other hand, everything is a compromise. One of the problems with soft kites is that you can only take aspect ratio *so* far. The proportions of a 12' Flexifoil are fine if you've got a spar along the leading edge, but they don't work very well when you're kite is completely soft. 4-line control puts more stress on the kite and compromises it's integrity further. If Parsons had used a tapered design, with deeper cells in the middle and smaller cells at the middle, this problem could be easily solved (take the larger cells out of the middle to reduce the size, whilst still maintaining essentialy the same aspect ratio and format). This could be integrated with the existing design as an upgrade for existing customers. I first suggested this to Parsons about 2 years ago, but whilst Moduluses try to cope with aspect ratios varying from 1:1 to around 7:1 at the extreems, he fails to recognise that there is a problem. The Kite design is exceedingly old fashoned in other aspects as well: Leading Edge. The leading edge of the kite is a drag problem. It is difficult to pull the nose down to make it as sharp as desired. There are various ways that performance kites have been built to try to solve this problem: 1) Increase the number of ribs at the leading edge (short ribs, just for the nose). This allows you to pull the top skin down closer, reducing the drag by having less billow. You'll see examples of this from time to time, but I can't think of one right now. 2) Use gauze to keep the leading edge in shape. This is the technique used by Flexifoil to produce one of the best L/D ratios going. You'll find that most serious traction kites do this. 3) Extend the fabric over the leading edge, but cut holes in it. This can be found in Parawings. Modulus still use and open leading edge, just like a parafoil. Keels. Yeah! external keels. Keels are used in parafoils as a convenient construction technique and to use the added drag for directional stability. They are useful in some designs of performance kite, as a fence, at the *wing-tip*, but these guys cover entire sections of the kite in them! Fabric. Everyone else has discovered that Icarex is a wonderful fabric for building soft kites. It's crisp, light and strong. Last I heard, the Modulus was still only available in Nylon (despite a price tag that you would only expect on an Icarex kite). The Bag. The weight of the bag is over-looked by the Modulus guys. It's a neat idea to take all your spare parts with you, particularly if you're off for a long trek down the coast or across the desert, but if you're racing, and trying to handle the maximum accelleration, it's the mass of the buggy (and the difficulty in making it accellerate at the same rate as the pilot) that leads to out-of-buggy experiences. But then again, if you watch them, they all fly on short lines, flying the bag more like a sail than a kite, so they seldom sweep the sky far enough to feel those sorts of forces. One of the biggest surprises with the Modulus is the price. Picking up and advert in an old copy of the Kiteflier, they are advertising it direct from the manufacturer at 675 pounds. That's for a 5.8m^2, kite built with Nylon fabric and Polyester bridle. For our American friends, let me convert, that's around 1000US$ for about 62 square feet, with no middle-man. That's even more money per square foot than you would expect to pay someone like Stretch for a beautiful custom applique'd parafoil. Performance. It would be unfair to say that the Modulus is useless. The manufacturers live next to an outstanding buggy site. Pebmrey beach is a long, wide, remote beach, at 90 degrees to the prevailing wind, which rides uninterupted straight from the Atlantic. The kite is optimal for these sort of conditions. No wonder they consider 5m^2 to be "large". Lest I give the wrong impression, I'll relate the comparisons between Modulus and other kites (primarily Peels) to which I've been a witness. Greenham Common. Peter Lynn vs Jonathan Harris. Jonathan was a keen Modulus flier, and at the age of 13(?), a light-weight cargo. Peter was keen to compare the modulus to a Peel, so chose a 5m^2 Nylon Peel to match the 5.8m^2 Modulus. The wind was light. They were testing on Tarmac (asphalt/black top). The runway was at approximately 90 degrees to the prevailing wind. The Peel was travelling at approximately twice the speed of the Modulus. Pembrey. Some of the strongest wind that I've buggied in. I wanted my Flexifoils, but for some reason I had the skins with me, and the spars at home :-(. Only kite was my 5m^2 Peel. I flew this from the bridle to minimise the power, but was still over-powered. I *felt* that I was cutting much further up-wind than any of the Modulus (on their home beach), but was denied the opportunity to prove it, because they wouldn't let me race! Weston. I can't remember the results of the racing. I wrote a report but I can't find it. I recall 3 incidents: - Slicing a straight line through the part of the course where everyone else was tacking (They were doing a zig-zag, I was just pointing at the mark) - Racing Parsons on a reach down the beach. I had 7.5m^2 he was running with considerably smaller (3.8m^2?). This was where I first started to learn for myself that you need a smaller kite for higher top speed. Neither of us were able to break away from the other. I finished by wraping my lines round a post :-( - Using buggy hooks and a too-large kite. I didn't merely touch the mark, I landed on it... Bristol. Light-wind demo of Modulus and Peels in the Arena. Peter had his new, Icarex 10m^2. The Modulus had sever difficulty in generating enough power to move in the long grass. Peter ran rings round them Blackpool. I turned up at the beach as the first race was starting. By the time I'd unpacked and was ready at the start-line, Chris Lamb was was finishing his first (of three) laps. Despite this massive handicap, I came in 6th in a field of 17. For the next 2 races, I did dissapointingly poorly and pulled in much the same result (6 and 7th place). By the time we were racing the next day, I had figured out that my mistake was to follow the rest of the field. For the second day's racing, I ignored the tacking courses that the Modulus fliers were plotting (2 or 3 tacks up-wind). I figured that I could point further into the wind, went off on my own course on that basis and completed the up-wind section with 1 tack. This left the others in my dust :-). I pulled in two first places and a second. There are some good racers out there - I stuffed up just once (I cut too close to the wind, lost momentum during a wind-lull) said goodbye to the first place I was holding at the time. I went home with some silverware from this, my first organised race meeting. Wroughton. There were two races at Wroughton: The 2nd UK National. It was intended that the winner of this event would be presented with the cup used in the 1st UK National. Unfortunately, the previous winner Kirrion(?) had entrusted it to Mick Parsons for display and dispite requests, we've not seen it since. In the spirit of the BBC event, I left my most appropriate kite (a 7.5m^2 Peel) with Bungle (who happened to be using it at the time) and decided to go round with 10m^2 and a passenger in the tandem. The field fell in a tangle within a few seconds of the start, entrapping everyone except Chris Lamb, who took good advantage from the situation. Mike Shaw gave chase, putting in a valient effort (trying *way* too hard on a tarmac surface...), but couldn't make up enough field. None-the-less, a win is a win. Staying out of trouble is just as important as high speed. The Tandem race. A difficult, low-wind race. First and second place taken by tandems powered by single Peels. The buggy with the *two* Modulus fliers came in a pathetic last. It is a tribute to Chris's determination as a racer that he finished the race at all. It is a useful kite. It performs very well in the smaller configurations, in strong wind but it doesn't hold together well in low-wind, larger configurations, it's down-wind performance appears to be poor - I've only seen people flying it like a play-sail down-wind, never not going for the "try to get down faster that the wind it's-self" game that really sorts out the men from the boys. Time after time, I've shown that I can cut powerfuly up-wind at angles that they can't hope for. One thing that they *do* have a good handle on is that you pull out a *smaller* kite for maximum top speed. It's a good idea to have loads of power to accellerate you round a course and to cut good angles up-wind, but if you want to break speed records, rather than course records, you want a small kite and a long run-up. Watch out for their boast along the lines of "we did X mph faster than Y kite, dispite the fact that Y kite was twice the size...". They're smarter than that. They went smaller because small kites top-out at a higher speed. The rest of the world could do with learning this from them. ...oooOOOooo... But it's not just the kite. All kites have design limitations, compromises and problems. I don't react against them, do I? Let's look at the PKA. The ParaKart Association. Never heard of a ParaKart? It's what they call buggies. All sorts of stories abound about this. One is that it is essential for insurance in conjuction with the Land Yachters, or that the Land Yachters won't let them use their sites without the name, or some other legalistic, far-fetched bogus reason. There's another story that the name is used by the G-Force, Parson's favorite Buggy Builder (possibly the most expensive buggies in the world, but I'll leave that thread for another day...). It might not sound important, but it's something that they stick doggedly to. Joining the PKA is expensive. Racing membership costs 30 pounds a year. This gives you insurance cover to buggy only at PKA and landyacht sites. The races themselves are extra. Expect to pay 10 pounds per event. You'll need to race in a minimum of 3 events to get enough points to win the season. So you're looking at 60 pounds (US$ 90) per year minimum. By comparison, membership of the BBC (The British Buggy Club) costs 13 pounds (US$ 20) per year, and provides insurance cover to buggy *anywhere* in the world except North America. The difference in the insurance cover is an important issue. The restriction is decided by the PKA, not the insurance company. The actual insurance policies heald by the organisations are *identical*, and arranged through the same people. Insurance is one of the issues where the PKA try to force themselves in, to find favor with the LandYachting Federation (who have long held most of the best sites) and the rest of the buggy world. It is telling to read how they have been missguided from the LandYacht AGM: "Some people may have different insurance [to the PKA policy] but this has several extra restrictions". The only restrictions on the BBC's insurance involves cover overseas. It's the PKA which restricts the cover available to it's members. There have long been questions over the PKA finances. For quite some while, membership money was paid direct to Spider. They boast that they raised some 2500 pounds in aid of a Downs Syndrome charity. Anne Harris and her daughter Zoe have tried repeatedly to get hold of the accounts for the group in order to look further into the matter. Zoe went so far as to get full racing membership (she doesn't buggy) so as to ensure that she had full privelage to ask the questions she wanted answers to. They hadn't succeeded when their membership ran out this year. It seems that now that they have gone, Chris is able to produce the books at the drop of a hat... Err... no. first he wants me to pay for membership. I wonder if he has the books only for the year just finished or if he can produce the goods for the time we're interested in, just before. I await his reply. There was a determined effort last season to bridge the gap between the PKA and the rest of the world last year. Zoe Harris took a senior post as publicist. Mike Shaw took on a position to liase between the PKA and the BBC. Zoe was left right out in the cold, unconsulted, and finding out what was going on not through her position on the committee, but second hand, through her brother Jonathan. Likewise, Mike Shaw was given the cold shoulder. They've given up and left the PKA. Note also that Jonathan Harris, once their Golden Boy, and Modulus Evangelist is also no-longer a member. Hmmm... I wonder. What were the membership numbers, this year and last year? Could the PKA be the only Buggy orgamnisation which is shrinking instead of growing with the sport? Just idle curiosity... The Committee this year is amusing to read... Mick Parsons and his err... co-habitee(*) Mike Jonston. Chris Lamb, Parson's Greatest deciple, and his girlfriend, Jayne Suckling John Worchester and his girlfriend, Nicky Steve Hill, and his wife, Sue I don't dispute that they were elected, but the list and the relationships still make interesting reading. (*) I understand that Parsons and Johnston share the same house. Parsons is married with child(ren?). I never implied any sexual relationship, ok? Hmmm... By being so closely involved with Parsons, Jonston tends to get tarred with the same brush. Don't fall for this. Have a chat with him, he's a really nice guy. The PKA have introduced some good rules. One is that they they start races by the clock. They say that the race starts at 1pm, and that's when it starts. If you're not ready, that's your problem. No waiting around for people at the start-line. On the other hand, they've produced an incredible set of complex rules for racing. They've been quite conclusively ripped apart and shown to be silly, unconstructive and self- conflicting by Peter Lynn (I think you'll find his paper somewhere on KFS), but they continue with them regardless. For the first PKA event that I tried to attend, I told Parsons a three days in advance that I was going to be there. I drove for over 3 hours to reach the site past the end of the M4 in Wales (Americans read: in the next state, past the end of the inter-state). I parked the car, dragged the kite and buggy to the beach, buggied with the people there for a while before realising that the race was about a mile up-wind. I cranked up the beach, leaving Joanne behind to walk, getting to the line maybe 10 or 15 minutes before the race was due to start. They refused to let me race, telling me that there was a unmarked van back in the carpark, where I should have registered, and more importantly, paid. I pleaded and argued, but there was no way that they were going to let me race. I couldn't pay at the line (I had to have the rule book and stuff that was back at the - now closed - van). I couldn't even just join in for fun. I know of 3 people who have tried to organise events with PKA/Spider/Parsons. 1) Flexifoil, are one of the biggest UK manufacturers. They pour time and money back into the kite scene here. They helped to do one of the Gwithian events. They will no longer have anything to do with Parsons. 2) Me. I(*) organised Wroughton. Perviously, I had gone for insurance direct to the LandYachters. Since Parsons had been working so closely with them, I went to him for insurance cover. He insisted that he run a PKA race to cover the event. I agreed and the event was organised. He then became very unhappy about the UK National being held there as well and pulled his cover. I had to arrange special cover just for the day. (*)I started it. In the event, Richard Marsh did a massive amount of re-organising for me, when we lost the original site (Greenham) at short notice. We presented him with the chequered flag, signed by all the participants in recognition of his contribution. 3) Avril put on an event at Weston and invited the PKA to do some racing. I don't know the full story, but I'd be surprised if she ever involves them again. ...oooOOOooo... But it's not just the PKA. The person behind all this is Mick Parsons. I'll not give you my opinion of him. I'll just relate a couple of the things he's told me: 1) He "doesn't consider himself to be a kite flier". If I wanted to go fast on land by wind-power, I'd ride a land-yacht. The fact that it is *kite* powered, is for me an essential part of what it's all about. To be this for removed from kiteflying, is I believe, quite telling. 2) He went to the original, the first Buggy Boogie Thang at Ivanpah in January '94, described by one as the "Woodstock" of Buggying. He considered it to be a waste of time. ...oooOOOooo... So what? The kite is less than perfect, but I don't fly them. The PKA leaves a lot to be desired, but I'm not a member. I no longer have anything to do with Parsons. So why do I get so worked up? It's because of the damage that they are trying to do. They carefuly work with the LandYacht fraternity to try to develop exclusive arrangements. You can tell that the LandYachters have been given the impression that the PKA is the whole of the buggy scene from reading their newsletters. They seem to be under the impression that "Parakart" is the normal, accepted term for a buggy, and seem to have a somewhat schewed view of the world. From their minutes: "It is nice to be joined with ParaKarters that have defeated the world's best available in America and France". Everyone else in the buggy scene has time for others. My preference is for 2-line, soft, cross-bridled kites (building my own these days, rather than Peels), but many of my closest bugging friends fly 4-line. There's rivalry, but it's all good natured. Check out the Lynn brochure, which goes so far as to include photos of competitor's kites. Different kites are useful for for different purposes. I'd hand a Flexifoil to someone who wanted outright speed. I'd hand a Paua to someone that wanted to be fastest round a course. I'd hand a Quad to someone who wanted the learning to be easy and forgiving. I'd hand a Sputnik-plan to someone who wanted to build their own. I'd hand a Modulus to someone who wanted to go on safari. Modulus have no such generosity. They try to rubbish everyone outside their cliquie. They circulate reports about non-PKA events (they talk of having "spies"), putting them down. I await Chris Lamb's account of the BBC event at Brean, which everyone enjoyed so much, but has been slagged off as usual in the Landsailer. Don't forget that Parsons is the only person I've heard of who hated the Buggy Boogie Thang... ...oooOOOooo... >From a recent postings: >> [The PKA is] Insulated from and unconnected to the rest of the world. > Were just ignored by all the kiting press so it seems that way. The Insulation works in 2 ways. PKA/Spider/Parsons keeps newcomers in the dark from the rest of the world, for more effective, blinkered indoctrination. They've also pissed off just about everyone in the mainstream kiting community, so as observed, they end up isolated in the opposite direction as well. >Wait and see.... world domination is on our agenda. Many a true word spoken in jest... > FOR SALE: MODULUS four line traction system 1.8m2 to 5.8m2 -550 UKPounds | I've sold 2 used Peels (and I miss them... *sob*) and 5 flexifoils through adverts in my .signature. You've been trying to fob off this kite for *ages*. It does seem to be difficult to pass on a used Modulus, doesn't it? ...oooOOOooo... Well, I've said my bit. No doubt Chris will have much to say in reply, but I don't particularly feel like arguing each and every point with him. (Although I'd be interested if he were to follow up the financial issue, where has all the money gone?) I merely put my reputation behind my opinion that anyone interested in buggying would be better off having nothing to do with the PKA or Modulus Kites. What better way to end my post than with the words of the man himself? > "There are two kinds of buggiers, those that have Modulus and those that > want Modulus" - Mick Parsons Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 04:33:08 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <49ci74$j6e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The PKA and Modulus Andrew wrote: Subject: The PKA and Modulus From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 11:33:22 GMT Several people have asked about my unsympathetic responses to any mention of Modulus, The PKA or Mick Parsons. Maybe it's time to explain. I'm not overly keen on 4-line soft kites, but that's a personal preference, (doesn't suit my style...) not something to get worked up about. There are some excelent examples around these days, just look at the Tigers and the Quad-pro. It's not just prejudice about the number of lines. Great post Andrew, always wondered why we don't see more of those kites here, even tho, the only times i've seen them, they were behind us. The first North American Buggy Championships were held recently in conjunction with the AKA's annual convention in Oklahoma, there was every type of kite used, old and new, four and dual. Did not see any Modulus. The course was well suited to all types of kites, which was proven by the placement of the different kites. Ted Doughtery placed with a quad and Bob Childs was in the top five with a quad. Don't know where Peter finished, but he had bridle problems from the first races masive first turn pile up. First and second place were peels, flown by Phillip McConnichie, who is way to fast anyway and should be required to haul bricks with him when he races along with at least one flat tire to give the rest of us a chance, and myself, who was graciously spared disqualification by the rest of the field. Apparently i started outside the starting line cones on one of the races, but was spared the dq by the rest of the racers vote. Thanks guys. Now to the meat of my post. come to the southern California desert with us in January. Bring any kind of kite or buggy or wind powered vehicle you can. If you want to race, we'll race, if you want to explore we'll explore, if you want to go buggy by yourself you can. There is so much room out there some people will carry GPS's with them to find base camp. El Mirage is huge and there is room for the biggest ego and no hard feelings for anyone. Mick, if you were bored at the first BBT, tell us why, and we'll see if we can help you. Lord knows our skill levels have gone up quite a bit since the last one. Folks, if you just want to be in the most beautiful wind powered situation you've ever seen, come. dean can't wait jordan aoxomoxoa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:08:15 -1000 From: Chris Lamb Message-Id: <817794495snx@sv.span.com> Subject: Re: The PKA and Modulus In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > Several people have asked about my unsympathetic responses to any mention of > Modulus, The PKA or Mick Parsons. Maybe it's time to explain. Gee, they noticed. > So Modulus has adopted the approach that you buy one kite and zip it > into the configuration that you desire. A reasonable solution. > Better than buying an entire range of quadrifoils. Not as sophisticated > as something that changes automatically in flight to deliver appropriate > performance, but I don't try to do that with the kites that I'm building > either. They turn it into a neat package too. A complete kit comes > with a bag to attatch to the back of your buggy, so that you can take the > spare bits you're not using with you (and of course, it's a quad, so you > can launch it straight out of the bag...). Scared of going out for miles > across Ivanpah on a blasting reach, only to find that the wind drops and > you've got to walk back? No problem if you've got more kite in the bag > to add on to give you size required to find the power in the gentle desert > breeze. Ouch, I bet that hurt. > > On the other hand, everything is a compromise. One of the problems with > soft kites is that you can only take aspect ratio *so* far. The > proportions of a 12' Flexifoil are fine if you've got a spar along the > leading edge, but they don't work very well when you're kite is completely > soft. 4-line control puts more stress on the kite and compromises it's > integrity further. If Parsons had used a tapered design, with deeper cells > in the middle and smaller cells at the middle, this problem could be easily > solved (take the larger cells out of the middle to reduce the size, whilst > still maintaining essentialy the same aspect ratio and format). This could be > integrated with the existing design as an upgrade for existing customers. > I first suggested this to Parsons about 2 years ago, but whilst Moduluses > try to cope with aspect ratios varying from 1:1 to around 7:1 at the extreems, > he fails to recognise that there is a problem. Although the Modulus can be built to 7.3m^2 (7.3 aspect) most flyers will go up to 5.8 then switch to the light wind 5.3BB. Things have moved on. > The Kite design is exceedingly old fashoned in other aspects as well: > > Leading Edge. The leading edge of the kite is a drag problem. It is > difficult to pull the nose down to make it as sharp as desired. There are > various ways that performance kites have been built to try to solve this > problem: > 1) Increase the number of ribs at the leading edge (short ribs, just for > the nose). This allows you to pull the top skin down closer, reducing > the drag by having less billow. You'll see examples of this from time > to time, but I can't think of one right now. Modulus. Called "Hot Mini's" and "Hot End Cells" reduces bottom end performance so is only used as an options for faster reaching. > 2) Use gauze to keep the leading edge in shape. This is the technique > used by Flexifoil to produce one of the best L/D ratios going. You'll > find that most serious traction kites do this. High pressure, makes it harder to relaunch after a crash > 3) Extend the fabric over the leading edge, but cut holes in it. This > can be found in Parawings. > Modulus still use and open leading edge, just like a parafoil. > > Keels. Yeah! external keels. Keels are used in parafoils as a convenient > construction technique and to use the added drag for directional stability. > They are useful in some designs of performance kite, as a fence, at the > *wing-tip*, but these guys cover entire sections of the kite in them! The 1m^2 "Keeled units" are added as a pair the smallest size they are used at is 4m^2 (Half the kite has keels) up to 5.8m^2 (one third of the kite has keels). I'll take your word for it that keels are a bad thing. > > Fabric. Everyone else has discovered that Icarex is a wonderful fabric > for building soft kites. It's crisp, light and strong. Last I heard, > the Modulus was still only available in Nylon (despite a price tag that > you would only expect on an Icarex kite). Modulus has been available in Dimension for well over a year and is now available in Polyester. > > The Bag. The weight of the bag is over-looked by the Modulus guys. > It's a neat idea to take all your spare parts with you, particularly > if you're off for a long trek down the coast or across the desert, > but if you're racing, and trying to handle the maximum accelleration, > it's the mass of the buggy (and the difficulty in making it accellerate > at the same rate as the pilot) that leads to out-of-buggy experiences. > But then again, if you watch them, they all fly on short lines, flying > the bag more like a sail than a kite, so they seldom sweep the sky far > enough to feel those sorts of forces. I race on 70ft lines, 150ft in light wind no need to sweep if you have the right power. Only time 30ft lines are used is in screaming on shore winds. Modulus is supplied on 70ft lines, 5.3BB on 150ft lines. > > One of the biggest surprises with the Modulus is the price. Picking up > and advert in an old copy of the Kiteflier, they are advertising it > direct from the manufacturer at 675 pounds. That's for a 5.8m^2, kite > built with Nylon fabric and Polyester bridle. For our American > friends, let me convert, that's around 1000US$ for about 62 square > feet, with no middle-man. That's even more money per square foot than > you would expect to pay someone like Stretch for a beautiful custom > applique'd parafoil. People are buying 'em. It's cheaper then 3 quads/peels > Lest I give the wrong impression, I'll relate the comparisons between > Modulus and other kites (primarily Peels) to which I've been a witness. > > Greenham Common. Peter Lynn vs Jonathan Harris. Jonathan was a keen > Modulus flier, and at the age of 13(?), a light-weight cargo. Peter > was keen to compare the modulus to a Peel, so chose a 5m^2 Nylon Peel > to match the 5.8m^2 Modulus. The wind was light. They were testing on > Tarmac (asphalt/black top). The runway was at approximately 90 > degrees to the prevailing wind. The Peel was travelling at approximately > twice the speed of the Modulus. *Selective* race results deleted. These are all old results as the spider, equipment/flyers have gotten better. Most of these are light wind meets modulus functions best in 8mph+. 5.3BB will function in the same wind as a 11m^2 peel. Everyone is scared to race us now. PKA Series 1994 1st - Dom Early (Modulus) 2nd - Chris Lamb (Modulus) 3rd - Jonathan Harris (Modulus) PKA Series 1995 1st - Dom Early (Modulus) 2nd - Mike Jonston (Modulus) 3rd - Chris Lamb (Modulus) 1994 European Class 8 Championship 1st - Mike Jonston (Modulus) 2nd - Chris Lamb (Modulus) 3rd - Chris Croft (Peels/Sands quad/Modulus) > It is a useful kite. It performs very well in the smaller configurations, > in strong wind but it doesn't hold together well in low-wind, larger > configurations, it's down-wind performance appears to be poor - I've only > seen people flying it like a play-sail down-wind, never not going for the > "try to get down faster that the wind it's-self" game that really sorts > out the men from the boys. Time after time, I've shown that I can cut > powerfuly up-wind at angles that they can't hope for. PKA courses are set to give the longest down-wind leg. Mick prides himself on this rule, it's the direction Modulus performs the worst on. Courses are set with a long upwind / long downwind and still modulus comes out on top. Sure every kite has it's day but over 18 races (PKA Series) modulus comes out on top. > > One thing that they *do* have a good handle on is that you pull out a > *smaller* kite for maximum top speed. It's a good idea to have loads of > power to accellerate you round a course and to cut good angles up-wind, > but if you want to break speed records, rather than course records, you > want a small kite and a long run-up. Watch out for their boast along > the lines of "we did X mph faster than Y kite, dispite the fact that > Y kite was twice the size...". They're smarter than that. They went > smaller because small kites top-out at a higher speed. The rest of the > world could do with learning this from them. Exactly you need the right power not more power. Auto reefing systems dont give you that. only modulus and stacks (where do you put those spars?). > > But it's not just the kite. All kites have design limitations, compromises > and problems. I don't react against them, do I? No, just Modulus > > Let's look at the PKA. The ParaKart Association. Never heard of a > ParaKart? It's what they call buggies. All sorts of stories abound about > this. One is that it is essential for insurance in conjuction with the > Land Yachters, or that the Land Yachters won't let them use their > sites without the name, or some other legalistic, far-fetched bogus reason. My BBC Insurance document says "Land Karting by Kite". Check yours. > There's another story that the name is used by the G-Force, Parson's > favorite Buggy Builder (possibly the most expensive buggies in the world, > but I'll leave that thread for another day...). It might not sound > important, but it's something that they stick doggedly to. Spider now make there only buggy I don't know what it is marketed as but Mick/Mike allways call it a buggy. > > Joining the PKA is expensive. Racing membership costs 30 pounds a year. > This gives you insurance cover to buggy only at PKA and landyacht sites. > The races themselves are extra. Expect to pay 10 pounds per event. > You'll need to race in a minimum of 3 events to get enough points > to win the season. So you're looking at 60 pounds (US$ 90) per year > minimum. By comparison, membership of the BBC (The British Buggy > Club) costs 13 pounds (US$ 20) per year, and provides insurance > cover to buggy *anywhere* in the world except North America. And that's all it provides. > The > difference in the insurance cover is an important issue. The restriction > is decided by the PKA, not the insurance company. The actual insurance > policies heald by the organisations are *identical*, and arranged through > the same people. Insurance is one of the issues where the PKA try to > force themselves in, to find favor with the LandYachting Federation (who > have long held most of the best sites) and the rest of the buggy world. > It is telling to read how they have been missguided from the LandYacht > AGM: "Some people may have different insurance [to the PKA policy] > but this has several extra restrictions". The only restrictions on > the BBC's insurance involves cover overseas. It's the PKA which restricts > the cover available to it's members. I don't want to get in on the insurance but I will say this BBC Insurance you NEED permission to use the site to be insured. PKA Insurance if you have permission it's a class 8 site and you PKA insurance is valid. There is a difference, If I'm on my local field and crash into a car the insurance company will check with the council if I had permissions the insurance will then be invalid. YOU NEED PERMISSION IN WRITING IN ORDER TO BE INSURED. > > There have long been questions over the PKA finances. For quite some > while, membership money was paid direct to Spider. They boast that > they raised some 2500 pounds in aid of a Downs Syndrome charity. Anne > Harris and her daughter Zoe have tried repeatedly to get hold of the > accounts for the group in order to look further into the matter. Zoe > went so far as to get full racing membership (she doesn't buggy) so as to > ensure that she had full privelage to ask the questions she wanted answers > to. They hadn't succeeded when their membership ran out this year. > It seems that now that they have gone, Chris is able to produce the > books at the drop of a hat... Err... no. first he wants me to pay > for membership. I wonder if he has the books only for the year just > finished or if he can produce the goods for the time we're interested in, > just before. I await his reply. The last two years are available. I'm told both Gwithian's cost Spider a lot of money and I KNOW the recent Class 8 Europeans that the sponsered cost them alot. > > There was a determined effort last season to bridge the gap between the > PKA and the rest of the world last year. Zoe Harris took a senior post > as publicist. Mike Shaw took on a position to liase between the PKA and > the BBC. Zoe was left right out in the cold, unconsulted, and > finding out what was going on not through her position on the committee, > but second hand, through her brother Jonathan. Likewise, Mike Shaw was > given the cold shoulder. They've given up and left the PKA. Note also > that Jonathan Harris, once their Golden Boy, and Modulus Evangelist is > also no-longer a member. > > Hmmm... I wonder. What were the membership numbers, this year and last > year? Could the PKA be the only Buggy orgamnisation which is shrinking > instead of growing with the sport? Just idle curiosity... Expanding new members are joining all the time sure several people have got fed up with the childish rivalry between the two clubs. eg read the BBC newsletter. > > The Committee this year is amusing to read... > > Mick Parsons and his err... co-habitee(*) Mike Jonston. > Chris Lamb, Parson's Greatest deciple, and his girlfriend, Jayne Suckling > John Worchester and his girlfriend, Nicky > Steve Hill, and his wife, Sue > > I don't dispute that they were elected, but the list and the relationships > still make interesting reading. It was for more practicle reasons. > > (*) I understand that Parsons and Johnston share the same house. Parsons > is married with child(ren?). I never implied any sexual relationship, ok? Leanie has just giving birth to there second. > > Hmmm... By being so closely involved with Parsons, Jonston tends to get > tarred with the same brush. Don't fall for this. Have a chat with him, > he's a really nice guy. > > The PKA have introduced some good rules. One is that they they start > races by the clock. They say that the race starts at 1pm, and that's when > it starts. If you're not ready, that's your problem. No waiting around > for people at the start-line. On the other hand, they've produced an > incredible set of complex rules for racing. They've been quite > conclusively ripped apart and shown to be silly, unconstructive and self- > conflicting by Peter Lynn (I think you'll find his paper somewhere on KFS), > but they continue with them regardless. I've raced Ian/Mike under there NO RULES system, I don't think they'd do it again. > > For the first PKA event that I tried to attend, I told Parsons a three days > in advance that I was going to be there. I drove for over > 3 hours to reach the site past the end of the M4 in Wales (Americans read: > in the next state, past the end of the inter-state). I parked the car, > dragged the kite and buggy to the beach, buggied with the people there > for a while before realising that the race was about a mile up-wind. I > cranked up the beach, leaving Joanne behind to walk, getting to the line > maybe 10 or 15 minutes before the race was due to start. They refused to > let me race, telling me that there was a unmarked van back in the carpark, > where I should have registered, and more importantly, paid. I pleaded > and argued, but there was no way that they were going to let me race. I > couldn't pay at the line (I had to have the rule book and stuff that > was back at the - now closed - van). I couldn't even just join in for fun. > > I know of 3 people who have tried to organise events with PKA/Spider/Parsons. > 1) Flexifoil, are one of the biggest UK manufacturers. They pour time and > money back into the kite scene here. They helped to do one of the > Gwithian events. They will no longer have anything to do with Parsons. Can you give some examples of them pouring money into the kite scene? > 2) Me. I(*) organised Wroughton. Perviously, I had gone for insurance > direct to the LandYachters. Since Parsons had been working so closely > with them, I went to him for insurance cover. He insisted that he run > a PKA race to cover the event. I agreed and the event was organised. > He then became very unhappy about the UK National being held there as > well and pulled his cover. I had to arrange special cover just for the > day. > (*)I started it. In the event, Richard Marsh did a massive amount of > re-organising for me, when we lost the original site (Greenham) at > short notice. We presented him with the chequered flag, signed by all > the participants in recognition of his contribution. You were going to run know rules racing. The racing must be safe or the insurance is invalid. > 3) Avril put on an event at Weston and invited the PKA to do some racing. > I don't know the full story, but I'd be surprised if she ever involves > them again. We've been there twice, I have resavations about using the site again but we'll see. > > ...oooOOOooo... > > But it's not just the PKA. The person behind all this is Mick Parsons. > I'll not give you my opinion of him. I'll just relate a couple of the > things he's told me: > > 1) He "doesn't consider himself to be a kite flier". If I wanted to go fast > on land by wind-power, I'd ride a land-yacht. The fact that it is *kite* > powered, is for me an essential part of what it's all about. To be this > for removed from kiteflying, is I believe, quite telling. Try taking a land-yacht on a plane/train/ferry or sticking it in the back of the car to pop down the local park. This is why land-yachters are switching to buggying > > 2) He went to the original, the first Buggy Boogie Thang at Ivanpah > in January '94, described by one as the "Woodstock" of Buggying. He > considered it to be a waste of time. > For a commercial reason he wanted to race, only the results will break down all the biased hearsay the kite gets from trusted experts such as yourself. > ...oooOOOooo... > > So what? The kite is less than perfect, but I don't fly them. The PKA > leaves a lot to be desired, but I'm not a member. I no longer have anything > to do with Parsons. So why do I get so worked up? It's because of the > damage that they are trying to do. They carefuly work with the LandYacht > fraternity to try to develop exclusive arrangements. You can tell that the > LandYachters have been given the impression that the PKA is the whole of the > buggy scene from reading their newsletters. They seem to be under the > impression that "Parakart" is the normal, accepted term for a buggy, and > seem to have a somewhat schewed view of the world. From their minutes: > "It is nice to be joined with ParaKarters that have defeated the world's > best available in America and France". > > Everyone else in the buggy scene has time for others. My preference is for > 2-line, soft, cross-bridled kites (building my own these days, rather than > Peels), but many of my closest bugging friends fly 4-line. There's > rivalry, but it's all good natured. Check out the Lynn brochure, which > goes so far as to include photos of competitor's kites. Different kites > are useful for for different purposes. I'd hand a Flexifoil to someone > who wanted outright speed. I'd hand a Paua to someone that wanted to > be fastest round a course. I'd hand a Quad to someone who wanted the > learning to be easy and forgiving. I'd hand a Sputnik-plan to someone > who wanted to build their own. I'd hand a Modulus to someone who wanted > to go on safari. Modulus have no such generosity. They try to rubbish > everyone outside their cliquie. They circulate reports about non-PKA > events (they talk of having "spies"), putting them down. I await Chris > Lamb's account of the BBC event at Brean, which everyone enjoyed so much, > but has been slagged off as usual in the Landsailer. Don't forget that > Parsons is the only person I've heard of who hated the Buggy Boogie Thang... My first couple of PKA race meets were with peels/flexis I was allways made wellcome. > > FOR SALE: MODULUS four line traction system 1.8m2 to 5.8m2 -550 UKPounds | > > I've sold 2 used Peels (and I miss them... *sob*) and 5 flexifoils through > adverts in my .signature. You've been trying to fob off this kite for > *ages*. It does seem to be difficult to pass on a used Modulus, doesn't it? > Yep, (allthough this is the second (Jayne's)). You see a peel flyer needs another peel a quad flyer needs another quad. Why does a modulus flyer need another modulus. > Well, I've said my bit. No doubt Chris will have much to say in reply, > but I don't particularly feel like arguing each and every point with him. > (Although I'd be interested if he were to follow up the financial issue, > where has all the money gone?) You should know how much it cost to put an event on. At wroughton (your event) it was 5 pounds each to get in (I even had to pay for Jayne even though she doesn't buggy on tarmac). Then we were all shamed into providing more money to cover costs. That DAY cost me 20 pounds, that would get me 18 races over 3 weekends with the PKA. > I merely put my reputation behind my opinion > that anyone interested in buggying would be better off having nothing > to do with the PKA or Modulus Kites. Can I put this in my .sig :-) Don't take Andrews word for it come along to an event (Day membership 5 - which goes towards your full membership should you decide to join later) you WILL enjoy it you WILL be welcome. As for Modulus kites, take Andrews advice and try everything before you buy. Or should that be "Everything except Modulus" Chris Lamb O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O | FOR SALE: MODULUS four line traction system 1.8m2 to 5.8m2 -550 UKPounds | | send Email to Chris@Sv.Span.Com for details. | | "There are two kinds of buggiers, those that have Modulus and those that | | want Modulus" - Mick Parsons | | "ZIPS eh, now thats a good idea" - Peter Lynn :-) | O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:31:20 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: The PKA and Modulus I don't want to drag this on for too long, so I'm deleting much... >> So Modulus [...] >> They turn it into a neat package too. A complete kit [...] >> No problem if you've got more kite in the bag >> to add on to give you size required to find the power[...] >Ouch, I bet that hurt. Not at all. I'll encourage anyone who comes up with new kite innovations. >[...]Things have moved on. I took great care to compare things at a similar timescale. Things have moved on elsewhere. Aside from the introduction, I deliberately avoided comparing the Modulus with the Paua, the Skytiger or the Quad Pro, because I felt it was unfair to judge the Modulus against a more recent vintage. >> 2) Use gauze to keep the leading edge in shape. This is the technique >> used by Flexifoil to produce one of the best L/D ratios going. You'll >> find that most serious traction kites do this. > >High pressure, makes it harder to relaunch after a crash Whilst your conclusion is correct - tuning the the minimum possible vent size will lead to slower inflation times (and thus shower crash recovery, I feel that your argument is completely bogus. I will look into this further and come back to it later. >Modulus has been available in Dimension for well over a year and is now >available in Polyester. Do you have an ASCII price-list that you could mail to interested parties? I'd be interested to learn the Icarex prices and the US$ prices... >People are buying 'em. It's cheaper then 3 quads/peels I'll resist the temptation to take a cheap shot at this remark. A price-list would let me make a comparison between a Modulus, a 5.3BB, the hot cells and Parson's Buggy, and perhaps 3 Tigers and a Flexifoil Buggy. Not that I expect to turn out cheaper, just to do a fairer comparison. > *Selective* race results deleted. Certainly *not* selective. I carefuly included *every* head-to-head that I had been witness to. It included the time when I raced neck-and-neck against Parsons, and the time when you won the 2nd National. Talking of the National, Mike Shaw was keen to point out that I underplayed his role in this race. He points out that he started in the lead, but dumped his kite in a thorn bush. Recovering the kite cost him 16 places - he dropped back to *last*. From this position, he clawed his way back to second place, and was not far from passing you when you claimed the flag. But then again, a win is a win, is a win. You opted to select only PKA events. >Exactly you need the right power not more power. Auto reefing systems dont >give you that. only modulus and stacks (where do you put those spars?). Pardon? Auto reefing give you more power where you need it (at the edge, trying to get up-wind), and less where you don't need it (on the reach). I'm boggled that you fail to understand this. >BBC Insurance you NEED permission to use the site to be insured. >[...] YOU NEED PERMISSION IN WRITING IN ORDER TO BE INSURED. This assertion is false. We have checked this point specifically with the insurers. On the other hand, we do reccommend that people do seek permission. >The [accounts for] last two years are available. Good. I'll get someone who's more aquainted with the issues to have a look at them. >[The PKA is] Expanding new members are joining all the time sure [...] Care to share the figures? Full and social members now, and this time last year? >I've raced Ian/Mike under there NO RULES system, I don't think they'd do it >again. Not true. The minimal rules of the Argyle Park Buggiers (available at http://www.kfs.org/kites) seem to be the most workable set of rules available to date. They are easily understood and widely used. >> 1) Flexifoil, are one of the biggest UK manufacturers. They pour time and >> money back into the kite scene here. >Can you give some examples of them pouring money into the kite scene? They sponsor Hackney Kite Festival in London and the Brighton Kite Festival. They were co-sponsors of Breem. They happily pay Avril generously to attend Bristol. I hava a suspicion that they put money into Gwithian, but I'm not sure. >You should know how much it cost to put an event on. At wroughton (your >event) it was 5 pounds each to get in (I even had to pay for Jayne even though >she doesn't buggy on tarmac). Then we were all shamed into providing more >money to cover costs. That DAY cost me 20 pounds, that would get me 18 races >over 3 weekends with the PKA. As I explained, the cost of that day skyrocketed because we had to organise our own insurance cover, when parsons pulled out. Unfortunately, it was just a few weeks before the BBC insurance was organised, making this sort of problem a thing of the past. >As for Modulus kites, take Andrews advice and try everything before you buy. >Or should that be "Everything except Modulus" On the contrary. Try everything you can. Listen not to me or to Chris. Make your own decision. On the other hand, expect your opinion to change as you become more experienced. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:20:59 -1000 From: Chris Lamb Message-Id: <818918459snx@sv.span.com> Subject: Re: The PKA and Modulus In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > > >[...]Things have moved on. > I took great care to compare things at a similar timescale. Things have > moved on elsewhere. Aside from the introduction, I deliberately avoided > comparing the Modulus with the Paua, the Skytiger or the Quad Pro, because > I felt it was unfair to judge the Modulus against a more recent vintage. The FEW of the newer kites that have come forward to race are no great threat. Maybe it's just that modulus flyers all feel they have something to prove and try harder. Maybe it's because we race harder, faster, longer. > > >> 2) Use gauze to keep the leading edge in shape. This is the technique > >> used by Flexifoil to produce one of the best L/D ratios going. You'll > >> find that most serious traction kites do this. > > > >High pressure, makes it harder to relaunch after a crash > > Whilst your conclusion is correct - tuning the the minimum possible vent > size will lead to slower inflation times (and thus shower crash recovery, > I feel that your argument is completely bogus. I will look into this > further and come back to it later. A crash is a crash, it's the practicality that counts. Dave Culp posted to the speed record thread about high efficency fly once/crash once kites. I'll except that this example is taking it to the extreme a happy medium is required. There are quite a lot of two line, high pressure buggiers that can't reliable relauch there kites after a crash. I've seen many just pack them away once they are wet and not even try to fly them even with an assisted launch (even icarex versions). > > >Modulus has been available in Dimension for well over a year and is now > >available in Polyester. > Do you have an ASCII price-list that you could mail to interested parties? > I'd be interested to learn the Icarex prices and the US$ prices... Call Spider :-) > > >People are buying 'em. It's cheaper then 3 quads/peels > I'll resist the temptation to take a cheap shot at this remark. A > price-list would let me make a comparison between a Modulus, a 5.3BB, the > hot cells and Parson's Buggy, and perhaps 3 Tigers and a Flexifoil Buggy. > Not that I expect to turn out cheaper, just to do a fairer comparison. Off the top of my head. Zippy (Dimension OR polyester or a mixture of both) comes at 5.8m^2 with hot end cells it also includes two hot mini's (0.5m^2 each) to replace the two standard ones when the conditions are right. cost is 899 uk pounds for 6.8m^2 of kite. This includes very sexy spectra bridling (NO knots) and a choice of zip sizes. (standard modulus is 675) The buggy is way more expensive then a lynn/flexi but then you get what you pay for. > > > *Selective* race results deleted. > Certainly *not* selective. I carefuly included *every* head-to-head that > I had been witness to. It included the time when I raced neck-and-neck > against Parsons, and the time when you won the 2nd National. > > Talking of the National, Mike Shaw was keen to point out that I underplayed > his role in this race. He points out that he started in the lead, but dumped > his kite in a thorn bush. Recovering the kite cost him 16 places - he dropped > back to *last*. From this position, he clawed his way back to second place, > and was not far from passing you when you claimed the flag. But then again, > a win is a win, is a win. And I told him after the race had it been a 3 race meeting he would of won. > > You opted to select only PKA events. See above (more accurate results). > > >Exactly you need the right power not more power. Auto reefing systems dont > >give you that. only modulus and stacks (where do you put those spars?). > Pardon? Auto reefing give you more power where you need it (at the edge, > trying to get up-wind), and less where you don't need it (on the reach). > I'm boggled that you fail to understand this. So why has every every peel buggier worth his salt removed the reefing system (including me in my early days). Do YOU use it? I know the PAUA is a lot better (flew one of the early ones at Bristol '94) but i've NEVER seen any one in the UK using one. Since they've been available 3 of the best peel flyers in the UK have bought/recieved new peels (IM, MAD, MS) NONE of them were PAUA's. What does this tell you. Is it the HIGH cost or or do they agree with me. (IM care to answer?) > > >BBC Insurance you NEED permission to use the site to be insured. > >[...] YOU NEED PERMISSION IN WRITING IN ORDER TO BE INSURED. > This assertion is false. We have checked this point specifically > with the insurers. On the other hand, we do reccommend that people > do seek permission. Your missing the point. Verbal permission will not help you in a court case. Besides it's not the insurance it's the permission that's the hard part. PKA gives you that permission on the best sites in the world. [Accounts stuff deleted] I feel your obsession with the accounts is un-natural. I think your using them just to take a pop at spider. It is common practice in clubs for people to be paid a salary for the work they do for the club, this past year we have paid expenses to the volunters who do the marshalling. Next year the race officer will also have his expenses paid (read Mick has never recieved money for holding the races). Does the AKA publish accounts? Does the kite society of GB publish accounts? > >I've raced Ian/Mike under there NO RULES system, I don't think they'd do it > >again. > Not true. The minimal rules of the Argyle Park Buggiers (available at > http://www.kfs.org/kites) seem to be the most workable set of rules > available to date. They are easily understood and widely used. >From what I remember they are VERY loose rules. We are in the process of refining our rules under the guidence/request of the sports council. If they feel our rules arn't well enough defined they'd have fits at the Argyle rules. > > >> 1) Flexifoil, are one of the biggest UK manufacturers. They pour time and > >> money back into the kite scene here. > >Can you give some examples of them pouring money into the kite scene? > They sponsor Hackney Kite Festival in London and the Brighton Kite Festival. > They were co-sponsors of Breem. They happily pay Avril generously to > attend Bristol. I hava a suspicion that they put money into Gwithian, > but I'm not sure. They put money into Berrow (Breem) ACOUNTS, ACCOUNTS I want to see the accounts. ACCOUNTS, ACCOUNTS where are the accounts. > Make your own decision. On the other hand, expect your opinion to change > as you become more experienced. Remember I used to fly Peels. O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O | FOR SALE: MODULUS four line traction system 1.8m2 to 5.8m2 -550 UKPounds | | send Email to Chris@Sv.Span.Com for details. | | "There are two kinds of buggiers, those that have Modulus and those that | | want Modulus" - Mick Parsons | | "ZIPS eh, now thats a good idea" - Peter Lynn :-) | O--------------------------------------------------------------------------O = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:07:48 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: The PKA and Modulus Chris Lamb writes: >[Loads more stuff] As you can see, we could carry this argument on forever. I've made my point. I don't want to labour it to the Nth degree. I've got a kite to finish. Andrew -- http://www.kfs.org/kites is having some reliability problems. We will shortly be upgrading CPU, disk and OS to address this. Don't post about splitting rec.kites. Wait for the RFD and CFV. Fancy stitches are for girls. Real men use 5mm straight stitch only. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =