Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 06:39:59 -1000 From: steveth@mindnet.com (Steve R. Thomas) Message-Id: <3vllap$k5t@news1.best.com> Organization: NetMind Media Subject: The Coin Toss Defined (Was: Re: Double Axels Revisted) Andy Wardley wrote: >Steve R Thomas: >>Whoa. A coin toss is not a "wing tip axel". A coin-toss is a move >>that starts with *both tips* down, and is a different move. >Philippe Lepez: >>I have the feeling that this time the same name is given to two different >>moves. I knew the coin toss as a sort of half axel, the kite jumping from >>one tip to the other one. >FWIW, I also know the coin toss to be the trick that Philippe describes: >axle off one tip onto the other. A wing tip axle starts the same, but you >axle off one tip into a launch. The axle starting with both tips down is >simply an axle launch or axle take-off. >All IMHO, of course. I hate to sound like such an authority on this subject, but Miguel Rodriguez who coined the name [sic] "coin toss" or "flip of the coin" doesn't yet have an Internet account (as far as I know). Let's get the above straight: Miguel first did this move about three years ago, and started showing people the move at that time. Since then, the move's been proliferated all over the world, like the axel, etc. etc. etc. The coin toss is Yet Another Move That You Wouldn't Think of Doing Because You Think You'll Break Your Kite Doing It. Like the Hatchet, the moves breaks rods if it's not done right (or done right and the kite's not built tough enough ;-) ). When the move is performed, the kite will look like it is tossed into the air from the ground, flipped around, and land right back where it started from. Hence the name--as in a "toss"... To perform the move (assume you want to flip in the clockwise direction): When the kite is on the ground with both wingtips down in front of you, move the (left) wingtip back such that the kite is at an angle to you. The (left) wingtip should be about 1-2 feet behind the (right) wingtip as it sits on the ground. With the kite set up, the move involves pivoting the kite around the (right) wingtip by pulling your right line. The (right) leading edge will bend somewhat which will cause the flipping motion to happen. The move is all in one motion, in which the (right) leading edge bends, the (left) wingtip comes off the ground, and the whole kite spins around itself (the spin is an "axel" type spin in which the kite is floating through a spin and not flying through a turn). At the end of the move, position the kite to complete the spin and then land in the exact position the kite started at, on both wing tips. It's a hard move to learn, and is easier done on kites that are a bit smaller (for instance, Miguel had all kinds of problems CTing an XTC X-16 :-) ). Miguel's California Wasp does the move best. Also, you need a surface that will grab your wingtip at least a little bit (i.e. not hard surfaces...). Performing the same move, but spinning the kite in the air *twice*, is a double-coin... ____________ Steve Thomas steveth@mindnet.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:51:58 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <3vmp8e$1oe@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Coin Toss Defined (Was: Re: Double Axels Revisted) In article <3vllap$k5t@news1.best.com>, steveth@mindnet.com (Steve R. Thomas) writes: > Like the Hatchet, >the moves breaks rods if it's not done right (or done right and the >kite's not built tough enough ;-) ). What's a Hatchet? aoxo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 08:19:37 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <3vofjp$76o@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University - OIT/NSD Subject: Re: The Coin Toss Defined (Was: Re: Double Axels Revisted) In article <3vo82l$cod@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, djskites@aol.com (Djskites) writes: |>This is my last response to this because this is getting a little out of |>hand. |> |>Marty says it is my fault for the confusion, sorry Marty, I would like to |>take credit for that but I can't. I guess I should have put a ;-) in my note Dodd. I didn't mean it as an idictment of you or your video's. You are an excellant flyer and your videos have done a lot to improve flyers enjoyment. Who could ask for more? |>Does it really really matter? In the grand scheme of things, none of this matters. But I do think that inventors of moves should be given credit for their creativity. If you invented a move and named it, shouldn't others call it the same thing? |>... And he |>taught me this move and called it a Coin Toss, so when I made my video, I |>naturally called it a coin toss and I will and so will many others |>continue to call it just that. I know that Miguel wants his move to be called the Coin Toss, so if you are saying that what Miguel wants isn't important, then sure, continue to do whatever you please. |>The Europeans are inventing their own(because they are very good!!!) and |>naming them and we are doing the same so of course there will be different |>names. The net can help with reducing confusion because it is international. If someone invents a move and names it then when I refer to that same move, I want to call it the same thing. If someone posts a description on the net, then lots of people will benefit because they will be able to learn about new moves, how to fly them, and what the creators call them. >So Marty, I think it is unfair for you to directly blame me for the |>confusion of the Coin Toss. Again, my original note was in jest and should have had a ;-) on it. I'm sorry if I have offended you Dodd. |>The important thing to remember is that we all need to work together to |>advance this sport. It would be nice to have some sort of written law that |>states who invented and called what move what, but that is impossible due |>to the reasons stated above. It might be impossible, but it certainly is worth trying to create a uniform nomenclature for things. Moves can be created and named. Snap stalls, tip stabs, axels, black holes, and hatchets have been described in this group. No reason that this can't continue. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 06:11:01 -1000 From: djskites@aol.com (Djskites) Message-Id: <3vo82l$cod@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Coin Toss Defined (Was: Re: Double Axels Revisted) This is my last response to this because this is getting a little out of hand. Marty says it is my fault for the confusion, sorry Marty, I would like to take credit for that but I can't. My wife reminded my last night that when a very good flyer, from the west coast showed me this move, he specifically called it a coin toss, she was there! I won't name names, but this flyer is one of the best (and still is!) and at the time was competing and winning on both coasts and was a student of great flyers like Miguel and others from the west coast. And he taught me this move and called it a Coin Toss, so when I made my video, I naturally called it a coin toss and I will and so will many others continue to call it just that. Does it really really matter? This same type of confusion is happening right now with new moves! Who are you going to blame for this next set of confusion?! The Europeans are inventing their own(because they are very good!!!) and naming them and we are doing the same so of course there will be different names. So Marty, I think it is unfair for you to directly blame me for the confusion of the Coin Toss. But hey, The USA is free country so say what you want. I Do!! The important thing to remember is that we all need to work together to advance this sport. It would be nice to have some sort of written law that states who invented and called what move what, but that is impossible due to the reasons stated above. Keep learning and sharing. Dodd Gross = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 20:23:49 -1000 From: Andy Wardley Message-Id: Organization: Peritas Multimedia Subject: Re: The Coin Toss Defined (Was: Re: Double Axels Revisted) Dodd Gross writes: >The important thing to remember is that we all need to work together to >advance this sport. It would be nice to have some sort of written law that >states who invented and called what move what, but that is impossible due >to the reasons stated above. Marty Sasaki writes: >The net can help with reducing confusion because it is international. [...] >It might be impossible, but it certainly is worth trying to create a >uniform nomenclature for things. Moves can be created and named. Snap >stalls, tip stabs, axels, black holes, and hatchets have been >described in this group. No reason that this can't continue. I think Marty's right about the net. Here on rec.kites we have everyone >From complete novice to masters class champions and geographically, from all over the world. If we had a definitive list of tricks, who invented them, etc., we could do much to aid the confusion, or at least explain where it comes from (i.e East Coast Americans call it a "Coin Toss", West Coast Americans call it an "Axel Take-Off", Europeans call it a "Boris the Spider", etc...) Perhaps the list of tricks on www.kfs.org would be a good starting place. It was compiled by one "pp@win.tue.nl" from Dodd's catalogue and the musings of Bert Tanaker. Does the original author (whose real name I can't seem to find) want to extend it? If there are no other takers I might consider starting such a list. In any case, it would require input from everyone to a) determine what tricks are being done and b) decide on what they should be called (or how many different names they should have). Cheers Andy Andy Wardley is the man from abw@peritas.demon.co.uk. His winky will have your eye out at 50 paces. I have that on good authority. You're all my best mates, nah I mean it, I really luv you all. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 07:38:45 -1000 From: td@research.att.com (Tom Duff 0112730) Message-Id: Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ Subject: Re: The Coin Toss Defined (Was: Re: Double Axels Revisted) djskites@aol.com (Djskites) frets: >This same type of confusion is happening right now with new moves! Who are >you going to blame for this next set of confusion?! >The Europeans are inventing their own(because they are very good!!!) and >naming them and we are doing the same so of course there will be different >names. >So Marty, I think it is unfair for you to directly blame me for the >confusion of the Coin Toss. Obviously, we need an international commission on naming, just like the astronomers have for naming newly discovered celestial bodies. I'd like to nominate Kenisky for the chairmanship. He's always whining about how nobody wants to let him play politician. Frank: there's nothing that people get more upset about than what name you call things -- you'll be right in your element. And of course, as Dodd worried above, theh rest of us will finally know who to blame... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =