Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 07:36:42 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3rhtva$p7k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line Dean Jordan (oxo) stated: >>I fly big power kites on spectra with no sleeving, gasp, and have never >>had a break at the knot. I also don't sleeve any of my finise(sp) >kite lines and have >>never had a problem in the last eight or s= >>o years. Dave Culp responded: >I'm pleased that you've never had problems. I *know* (from many tests; mine and >cordage companies') that you are using lines which a= >re at least twice as strong as you need. If you're happy with this, great. Keep it up. You >could use lighter, cheaper, less draggy l= >ine if you want, by using sewn or spliced loops. JTAVO sez: I can't resist any more!!! Dave, Are you inferring that I should be flying my Hi 60 'tiger (or flexi stacks) on 150# or even 200# line safely with sewn or spliced loops???? I think that would be foolish and dangerous! :-0 My own tests (the only ones that count in my book) have proven that you do not need sleeving at all. I also have not used sleeving in the last 5 or so years and don't miss it. I use three overhand knots (prevents slipping, melting and line failure) I also tend to use as light a line weight as possible, but to go 1/3 to 1/2 lighter on my lines is absurd. Here is my bottom line... If line doesn't break at the knot, why sleeve? (it doesn't, so don't) And don't tell me that a break within 12 inches of the knot is considered the knot. makes no sense. The general contention that unsleeved line is weaker than sleeved line has not been proven to me, or any of the more experienced flyers I know. Some say 1/2 the strength others 1/4. Does that mean that the 300#(unsleeved of course) line I use only has the strength of 150# or 200#?? I think not. (After being lifted and dragged all over the place at Wildwood this year, My 230 pound body would have to disagree) This thread on sleeving has been interesting, but a trip to the sewing machine to sleeve or splice or whatever seems like a big hassle. What do you do on the field with broken line?? (I just get out my lighter, burn both sides and re-tie, simple) The other bottom line, Do whatever you like!! if you like sleeving enjoy! If you don't then don't!!! Nothing bad will happen, believe me and Dean Jordan( whom I passed with my hi 60 @ WW buggy blast) Hi dean:-) Note, This is not an attack on anyone! I just think too many people worry too much about sleeving!! Signed, Its good to be back!! John Tavolacci P.S. I just put another "Dean Jordan eats buggy dust" Sticker on my buggy, And one on Eitavo's buggy!!!! ;-) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 12:23:15 -1000 From: Dave Culp Message-Id: <3rieok$p1c@bdt.bdt.com> Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) wrote: >Dave, Are you inferring that I should be flying my Hi 60 'tiger (or flexi >stacks) on 150# or even 200# line safely with sewn or spliced loops???? Absolutely. >My own tests (the only ones that count in my book) have proven that you do >not need sleeving at all. I also have not used sleeving in the last 5 or >so years and don't miss it. I use three overhand knots (prevents slipping, >melting and line failure) I also tend to use as light a line weight as >possible, but to go 1/3 to 1/2 lighter on my lines is absurd. IF you never break at the knot, and IF you never break at a worn spot, say, 12" >From the knot, then I agree with you, keep doing what you're doing. I don't particularly like sleeving, either. I use another scheme to avoid wear at my loops, and don't use knots, so don't worry about "knot radius," etc. With all due respect, when you can put your knot set-up, in new line, next to a properly sewn or spliced loop, and break the splice first, *then* I'll buy your approach. >Here is my bottom line... If line doesn't break at the knot, why sleeve? >(it doesn't, so don't) I'd like a little survey here: does ANYBODY else, who ties knots in their lines, break (new lines, now) at a point NOT at the knot? I know of none. >Does that mean that the 300#(unsleeved of course) line I use only has the >strength of 150# or 200#?? I think not. Of course it does. You're body is being pulled around by TWO lengths of line, isn't it? Should only take 115# stuff to drag you, and I'll wager that on grass, your coeffficient of drag is a lot less than your body weight >This thread on sleeving has been interesting, but a trip to the sewing >machine to sleeve or splice or whatever seems like a big hassle. What do >you do on the field with broken line?? In the field, if you're not concerned with performance, by all means use heavier line and tie it. If you're interested in performance, carry extra lines, preferrable in several line weights. Keep your lines new, clean, and spliced (or sewn!) >Note, This is not an attack on anyone! I just think too many people worry >too much about sleeving!! I agree; no offense taken, and I hope none given Yours, DAve Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 03:10:09 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <3rk2nh$eca@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line OK you guys, settle down!! I agree with you both, in that you should do what ever is mo9st comfortable for you. That said, i must lean towards Travos statement that less is more, i have never broken at the knot, why is that? And the reason i am using a heavier weight line for power is because i was breaking that line in the middle some where and i got tired of splicing it(yes, i do know how, Lee taught me). ps. Travo (# 3 in country) may have passed me, but i was asleep and using a small kite, not to mention having two flat tires and a blind fold on. . . aoxomoxoa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 05:31:55 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3rkb1b$gc1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line Dave Culp responded: (Good stuff deleted) Dave: Thanks for the great intelligent response on the spectra issue. Even though I still believe sleeving is a waste of time, I have changed my mind about splicing! Your comments about the two lines supporting my weight sent me and a new roll of 150# spectra and 200# spectra on an experiment. My experiment: I rigged up two lengths of 150# spectra into 2 even pieces tied with 3 overhand knots, tied to pieces of heavy dacron using a larks head. (what I currently use on my power kites.) I then tied them to my chin up bar in my closet. The lower pieces were tied to a length of solid steel. This made a sort of mini swing in my doorway that allows me to stand on it giving both pieces my whole body weight. the first time I barely had my about 3/4 of my weight on it before Both pieces broke. Both breaks occured exactly 2 inches from the knot at the bottom. The second attempt had the exact same results. So much for knots being the weak point! Result? I WILL not use 150# line on my hi 60 tiger. But wait there's more! I then used 200# spectra as above. (again new) The 200# line held my body weight for about 5 seconds before it broke. one line broke 3 inches from the knot and one line broke at the knot. (just a little surprised) Repeated it again with the exact same results. (getting there) Still more!! hold on. I then spliced the 200 pound spectra on both ends and did it again. (Drum roll please!) The spliced line HELD my body weight!!!!! OK so here I am swinging from 200# spectra in my closet (sounds kinky!) I then started to increase my weight by pushing on the bar on top. It took some pushing but the line did break. It broke at the Larks head tied to the dacron! BOTH times! Results? I will try 200# spectra on my Hi 60 Tiger! So the results are in and I have changed my mind about splicing, Not about sleeving though. Splicing is now king in my book but there is still the weak link (the larkshead) so the question is this. What method do you use to tie your spectra to the dacron as not to have the line cross?? Lets here some more! Signed, John Tavolacci the "splicer" (not to be confused with the Slice) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 13:09:24 -1000 From: travell@comics.enet.dec.com (I want to Go Fly a Kite!) Message-Id: <9506132209.AA29923@vbormc.vbo.dec.com> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line >I then started to increase my weight by pushing on the bar on top. It took >some pushing but the line did break. It broke at the Larks head tied to >the dacron! BOTH times! >weak link (the larkshead) so the question is this. What method do you use >to tie your spectra to the dacron as not to have the line cross?? Don't remove the last weak link, or when your line does break it will be in the middle! stick to the Larkshead, the failure (when it happens) will just mean slightly shorter lines, not half-length! John Travell. Southampton (UK) Kite Festival is on the 24th & 25th June 1995. Solent Kite Flyers is a NEW Kite club based around Southampton, UK, Contact me by Email "travell@comics.enet.dec.com" for further info. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 02:53:21 -1000 From: mjpellet@mailgw.sanders.lockheed.com (Mark Pelletier) Message-Id: <3rmm42$p0l@news.sanders.lockheed.com> Organization: Lockheed Sanders Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line In article <3rkb1b$gc1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jtavo@aol.com says... >The spliced line HELD my body weight!!!!! >OK so here I am swinging from 200# spectra in my closet (sounds kinky!) ... >So the results are in and I have changed my mind about splicing, Not about >sleeving though. Splicing is now king in my book but there is still the Hi John, Can you please describe the splice you used...to suspend yourself in your closet? (kinky?...) A friend of mine works at the mill that produces raw yardage used in Americas Cup class sails...he showed me a simple in-line splice (weaver's knot or splice?). Any opinions on this one when used w/Spectra? I haven't done any tests yet...swinging around in my closet could be fun!. I guess I can't see how the weaver's knot could be modified to produce a loop (do you use a loop?). Thanks for your help and your humor! Mark = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 03:42:43 -1000 From: jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <3rmp0j$bqk@geog27.umd.edu> Organization: Project Glue, University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line In article <3rkb1b$gc1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, JTavo wrote: >So the results are in and I have changed my mind about splicing, Not about >sleeving though. Splicing is now king in my book but there is still the >weak link (the larkshead) so the question is this. What method do you use >to tie your spectra to the dacron as not to have the line cross?? There was a solution to this in the old Herculine manual. (Herculine was the Rainbow Kite Co.'s kevlar packaging...it came with a bunch of "sleeving" and a fid, as well as good instructions on splicing) Basically, just slide a piece of sleeving onto the end of the line, then splice the bitter end into the line to create a loop, with the splice below the sleeving. The sleeving doesn't actually need to be tied down (though if you don't, it can scrunch pretty badly). The end result of this is a spliced loop with a piece of sleeving along the top arch of the loop. This should be pretty safe for a larkshead... Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | Pithy, insightful quote to be inserted | | | when one occurs to me. *If* one occurs | |jeffy@glue.umd.edu | to me. | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:45:06 -1000 From: Dave Culp Message-Id: <3rnl92$s8p@bdt.bdt.com> Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line travell@comics.enet.dec.com (I want to Go Fly a Kite!) wrote: >Don't remove the last weak link, or when your line does break it will be in the >middle! stick to the Larkshead, the failure (when it happens) will just mean >slightly shorter lines, not half-length! > John, this is real good advice, and common "good sense." But if you use this approach, you will carry 150' of too-large line, just to have a 2" "fuse." This seems patently silly to me. I don't actually have a better idea. It just looks to me that if you want performance, you need to pay the price. How much performance? My calculations suggest that, if you can eliminate half the sag in a 125' set of kitelines, while moving *very* fast (over 1.5 times the windspeed), the increase in kite L/D could allow acceleration to over 2 times the windspeed. Please don't ask me to provide the math, it makes *a lot* of assumptions, and frankly was done for Flexifoils over water, but the gains can be *huge.* Does anybody have any other ideas (other than flying with smaller lines) for decreasing wind drag on the kite line?? Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:23:11 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3ro21v$fnl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: RE: Knots in spectra line >Can you please describe the splice you used...to suspend yourself in >your >closet? (kinky?...) I used the no knot system that I learned years ago in the time of Kevlar. You use a hook tool (help with the name please) to pull about 8 inches of the spectra back into the core of the line. so actually it is not a splice? I guess. It is relatively simple and can be done on the fly field. I have only done this with 200# line so I don't know how easy it is on smaller braids. Later, John. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:37:31 -1000 From: Dave Culp Message-Id: <3rnkqr$s8p@bdt.bdt.com> Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) wrote: >There was a solution to this in the old Herculine manual. (Herculine was >the Rainbow Kite Co.'s kevlar packaging...it came with a bunch of >"sleeving" and a fid, as well as good instructions on splicing) > >Basically, just slide a piece of sleeving onto the end of the line, then >splice the bitter end into the line to create a loop, with the splice below >the sleeving. The sleeving doesn't actually need to be tied down (though >if you don't, it can scrunch pretty badly). The end result of this is a >spliced loop with a piece of sleeving along the top arch of the loop. This >should be pretty safe for a larkshead... > You musta reead a different Herculine manual than I did. I use their scheme exclusively, and you *can't* use sleeving. (It's hard to explain, but involves turning a part of the line "inside-out" and pulling the loop through itself) I'll try to find my old instruction sheet and either transcribe it, or upload a scan of it to Andrew's website. DAve Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:34:02 -1000 From: Dave Culp Message-Id: <3rnkka$s8p@bdt.bdt.com> Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) wrote: >I then spliced the 200 pound spectra on both ends and did it again. > (Drum roll please!) >The spliced line HELD my body weight!!!!! >OK so here I am swinging from 200# spectra in my closet (sounds kinky!) >I then started to increase my weight by pushing on the bar on top. It took >some pushing but the line did break. It broke at the Larks head tied to >the dacron! BOTH times! >Results? I will try 200# spectra on my Hi 60 Tiger! > Great, solid research going on here. First, it's clear that the presence of the knots caused the breakage *near* the knots. I have no idea why this happened. If someone doubts it, repeat the experiment 10 times. If results are the same (lines break near knot and splice holds) then you have conclusive evidence. I'll take your one-time shot as gospel, since it squares with established theory. I'd like to know why 2" away from the knot, though? >So the results are in and I have changed my mind about splicing, Not about >sleeving though. Splicing is now king in my book but there is still the >weak link (the larkshead) so the question is this. What method do you use >to tie your spectra to the dacron as not to have the line cross?? > I use a stainless steel thimble in my loops (like the yachties use on the end of their ropes), but miniaturized. I then lark's head the dacron to this. The dacron never actually touches the spectra, only the thimble. (Definition of thimble = Imagine a piece of small stainless tubing bent into a teardrop shape--dimensions about 1/8" diameter; teardrop agout 1/2' wide x 1" long). Now saw all along it (saw blade describes a teardrop pattern), and throw away the outside portion--These can be bought in sizes as small as 1/16 - 3/32" line. The loop has to be a bit bigger than the thimble in order to get it on; I then whip the "throat" of the thimbled loop with thread to close it up. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 05:19:43 -1000 From: travell@comics.enet.dec.com (I want to Go Fly a Kite!) Message-Id: <9506151419.AA14427@vbormc.vbo.dec.com> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line I wrote: >Don't remove the last weak link, or when your line does break it will be in the >middle! stick to the Larkshead, the failure (when it happens) will just mean >slightly shorter lines, not half-length! Dave Culp wrote: >John, this is real good advice, and common "good sense." But if you use this >approach, you will carry 150' of too-large line, just to have a 2" "fuse." >This seems patently silly to me. But I did not mean to use knots to tie the loop on the end, either sew or splice the loop for maximum strength, then rely on the Larkshead `knot' to be your weak link. Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough, that often happens with me... Is there a better (stronger) way to connect the line to the bridle ? to eliminate even the Larkshead weak link, if so, what will fail instead.?? John Travell. Nine days to go, and counting... until the Southampton (UK) Kite Festival. This is on the 24th & 25th June 1995. Solent Kite Flyers is a NEW Kite club based around Southampton, UK, Contact me by Email "travell@comics.enet.dec.com" for further info. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:20:53 -1000 From: daveculp@bdt.com (Dave Culp) Message-Id: Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line > >Don't remove the last weak link, or when your line does break it will be in the > >middle! stick to the Larkshead, the failure (when it happens) will just mean > >slightly shorter lines, not half-length! > > Dave Culp wrote: > >John, this is real good advice, and common "good sense." But if you use this > >approach, you will carry 150' of too-large line, just to have a 2" "fuse." > >This seems patently silly to me. > > But I did not mean to use knots to tie the loop on the end, either sew or > splice the loop for maximum strength, then rely on the Larkshead `knot' to > be your weak link. > Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough, that often happens with me... > > Is there a better (stronger) way to connect the line to the bridle ? to > eliminate even the Larkshead weak link, if so, what will fail instead.?? Guess I'm still not making myself clear. I believe that the line *should* be the weakest link. Or in other words, all links should be equally strong, and just barely strong enough to handle the maximum load. If you create any kind of a "weak link," you will have to have that link able to handle the highest load. Then all your other parts (like the line itself) will have to be stronger; thus too strong (and heavy, and expensive, and draggy...) Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:06:57 -1000 From: kevin@island.kites.com (Kevin Mayeshiro) Message-Id: <3rq7dh$g9v@malasada.lava.net> Organization: Island Kites Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line JTavo (jtavo@aol.com) wrote: : I used the no knot system that I learned years ago in the time of Kevlar. : You use a hook tool (help with the name please) to pull about 8 inches of : the spectra back into the core of the line. so actually it is not a : splice? I guess. It is relatively simple and can be done on the fly : field. I have only done this with 200# line so I don't know how easy it : is on smaller braids. The hook tool is known as a "fid". They can be found in a couple of different sizes, which are used for different strength lines. The ability to splice will be determined by the line manufacture. I've had problems splicing one brand of 150# line, while another was easy. It also takes a bit of skill and practice. We have 80# team lines from High Fly Kite Co. that are spliced, and all of the loops and splices are clean. - Kevin -- Kevin Mayeshiro kevin@island.kites.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 04:46:47 -1000 From: dquad@aol.com (DQuad) Message-Id: <3s1e8n$lpc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line JTavo (jtavo@aol.com) wrote: : -> I have only done this with 200# line so I don't know how easy it : -> is on smaller braids. dquad asks of Travo - Do you prestretch your lines before you splice? Like with traction lines, there is always a decent amount of stretch before and after you equalize the lines. Do you re-splice after the stretch? If so , how? Er, or is ther another method of doing this thing? Also, on the smaller diameter of lines(ie, 80#, etc), how do you do it?Splice or overhand? Send all sleeving kits to jtavo for recycling. passed by travo @ WW, but it was my new tires. gotta practice more.... dave arnold = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:07:00 -1000 From: larry.peters@compudata.com (LARRY PETERS) Message-Id: <8AB93C7.02A7002547.uuout@compudata.com> Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245 Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line Kevin, I'm going to try to get to you once more, I do not know that the Router for EMail does but you can't get or send I'm a little poed about it but I sent so many replys and you don't answer them. Just let me know, are we still on? As I will use Postal Chk. larry.peters@compudata.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 05:11:28 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line Dave Culp writes: >Does anybody have any other ideas (other than flying with smaller lines) for >decreasing wind drag on the kite line?? Since you ask, here are some things that come to mind (mostly other people's ideas...) Decrease the number of lines. Use 2 insread of 4. Use 1 instead of 2 (I understand that Peter Lynn made a r/c single-liner in an experiment along these lines...). Use less bridle: Catenary has less bridle drag than Cross. Flexi has err... very little bridle drag :-) Fly slower. I think that drag is proportional to the square of the speed (or something nasty like that...). Hmmm... I need to think about that one :-) Share the load more evenly. If, during cornering, all the pull is transferred through one line, then the lines must be rated to cope with this max load. If you can spread the load between the lines at all times, you can use a weaker line. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html note: A 1 hour local evening call costs 20more after BT's latest price-cut. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:59:21 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line argh! I don't want to get into the sleeve/not-sleeve religious war, but let me just selectively quote jtavo@aol.com: In article <3rkb1b$gc1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> you write: >Even though I still believe sleeving is a waste of time[...] -snip- >My experiment: I rigged up two lengths of 150# spectra into 2 even pieces >tied with 3 overhand knots, tied to pieces of heavy dacron using a larks >head. -snip- >It broke at the Larks head tied to the dacron! BOTH times! -snip- >What method do you use >to tie your spectra to the dacron as not to have the line cross?? hmmm... might I dare to suggest a *sleeved* larkshead? Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html note: A 1 hour local evening call costs 20more after BT's latest price-cut. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:13:24 -1000 From: daveculp@bdt.com (Dave Culp) Message-Id: Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line In article <3s9kgk$mej@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) wrote: > Andrew replies > hmmm... might I dare to suggest a *sleeved* larkshead? > > No. > It is the idea that we don't like sleeving and will do any thing to get > away from it. > BTW I don't even have any sleeving. :-{) > Andrew, you were right, this sleeving issue *IS* a religous thing! I can't speak for anyone else, but I will try *anything* which will, or even might, increase the effectiveness of my kites. > ???????? Does line length effect line strength??????? Good question. I really don't think so, in and of itself. A longer line will provide some "shock" protection from high transient loads. (Even spectra stretches a little, plus you can always pull the sag out.) Unfortunately, except for running into things, kitelines seldom experience shock loads. Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 07:22:28 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3s9kgk$mej@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line Andrew replies hmmm... might I dare to suggest a *sleeved* larkshead? No. It is the idea that we don't like sleeving and will do any thing to get away from it. BTW I don't even have any sleeving. :-{) ???????? Does line length effect line strength??????? My closet isn't that big or I'd try it. Later, John = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:07:58 -1000 From: daveculp@bdt.com (Dave Culp) Message-Id: Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line In article , andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: > > Decrease the number of lines. Use 2 insread of 4. Use 1 instead of 2 (I > understand that Peter Lynn made a r/c single-liner in an experiment along > these lines...). > Great thought. Guy in connecticut named Rich Wallace built a radio control single line tethered glider with a 10' wingspan (about 1 sq m wing area). He instrumented it with autopilot, radio altimeter, vidoe camera, pitot tubes to give pitch and yaw, and flew this sucker at over 80 mph in 20 mph winds. (I've *seen* the video tape!) Claimed it pulled over 100# at that speed. Never got the autopilot working right, but was able to fly it well >From normal r/c controls. Pretty expensive toy (about $5k), but he used all surplus gear, and said could manufactur it for under $2500... > Use less bridle: Catenary has less bridle drag than Cross. Flexi has err... > very little bridle drag :-) > Q.E.D. > Fly slower. I think that drag is proportional to the square of the speed > (or something nasty like that...). Hmmm... I need to think about that one :-) > > Share the load more evenly. If, during cornering, all the pull is transferred > through one line, then the lines must be rated to cope with this max load. If > you can spread the load between the lines at all times, you can use a weaker > line. > This has some merit, and would doubtless work. Any suggestions? I've heard of injection molding little airfoil sleeves of hard foam and strining them like beads on the line. I'm working on adding "vibration attenuators" (for lack of a better term) to try to stop the lines from vibrating (singing). This is a very real energy waster, and I'm making some progress. Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:50:47 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Knots in spectra line daveculp@bdt.com (Dave Culp) writes: >Good question. I really don't think so, in and of itself. A longer line >will provide some "shock" protection from high transient loads. (Even >spectra stretches a little, plus you can always pull the sag out.) >Unfortunately, except for running into things, kitelines seldom experience >shock loads. Moving from power kites to big single-liners, it is interesting to compare Martin Lester with Peter Lynn. Peter uses high-tech lines, one and two tonne Spectra or Kevlar, sleeved down the entire length (sleeved suting manufacture - he doesn't use a 300' sleeving needle...). Martin uses cheap nasty stuff that stretches like elastic. Peter seems to have a tendancy to snap his lines when his big toys hit a gust. Martin's lines just stretch and soak it up... On the other hand, Peter has a distinct advantage when it comes to paying for excess baggage. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html note: A 1 hour local evening call costs 20more after BT's latest price-cut. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:24:17 -1000 From: Bob.Goghan@crystal.dircon.co.uk (Bob Goghan) Message-Id: <409_9506300627@crystal.dircon.co.uk> Organization: The Crystal Tower Subject: Knots in spectra line >>hmmm... might I dare to suggest a *sleeved* larkshead? J>>No. >>It is the idea that we don't like sleeving and will do any thing to get >>away from it. >>BTW I don't even have any sleeving. :-{) Hello Kite Flyers, I have been reading with interest the debate on 'to sleeve' or 'not to sleeve', and would dearly like to know the reasoned argument against sleeving. I personally find no difficulty in the task, in fact I enjoy it. The inclusion of 3" of sleeving on the ends of the Spectra lines surely would not have any measurable effect on the speed or performance ! The second question is, does the AKA own 'rec.kites' as it certainly has taken up residence lately, we have a saying here about 'washing your dirty linen in public'. Pee'ed off Limey, Bob in Hillingdon. * QMPro 1.53 * Three score years and ten already, where's it all gone ! -- Bob.Goghan@crystal.dircon.co.uk +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The Crystal Tower, Enfield, London 0181-447-8244 V21-V32bis,HST | | InterNet: crystal.dircon.co.uk FidoNet: 2:254/220 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 09:23:30 -1000 From: Bob.Goghan@crystal.dircon.co.uk (Bob Goghan) Message-Id: <8a1_9507060611@crystal.dircon.co.uk> Organization: The Crystal Tower Subject: Knots in spectra line Hello Andrew, Many thanks for your reply, it just seems a technical challenge then to join Spectra without sleeving, because the makers recommend sleeving it. I can understand that, I always want to be different also . >>Some people have a religious conviction to eschew sleeving at any cost... A>>Frank Kenisky is essentialy trading in competition to the AKA (he runs >>festivals for money) and causes as much damage to the AKA as possible. >>Please don't consider him in any way represenataive of the membership. That explains that as well, thanks again, all is now clear. I have learnt not to read 'anything' from Kinsky in 'rec.kites' so saving my blood pressure. We must be very lucky here in the UK, not to have anyone like him. Bye, Bob in Hillingdon. * QMPro 1.53 * ...To make a success of old age, you have to start young. -- Bob.Goghan@crystal.dircon.co.uk +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The Crystal Tower, Enfield, London 0181-447-8244 V21-V32bis,HST | | InterNet: crystal.dircon.co.uk FidoNet: 2:254/220 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =