Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 04:00:04 -1000 From: ouisie@ripco.com (Ouisie) Message-Id: Organization: Ripco Internet BBS Chicago Subject: Knots for Spectra line Are there any sport kite veterans out here who might know the answers to a couple of questions? I recently purchased a Foxtrot stunt kite from Adventures Kites in FL because at $68 for a nearly 8' wingspan and Icarex sail, I couldn't resist...particularly since other kites in that size range commonly sell for around $200. Is this kite really as great of a performer (does all the tricks; turtle, helicopter, axels, etc.) as the ads say? Unfortunately, I have yet to find out. I was trying to fly it yesterday here in Chicago near the lakefront and even though this is known as the 'windy city' (I have no idea why), and the Foxtrot is supposed to be able to fly in as little as 3 or 4 mph wind, the most I was able to accomplish was to get it about 20' into the air (only after a sharp pull backwards) very briefly and only a couple of times. Of course at that point, it was every bit as sluggish as any kite would be when flown to the far right or left of the wind 'window' for landing. The wind simply wouldn't cooperate...what a bummer!!! The second question is about the sleeving of spectra line. I also made a set of 125' spectra lines for the Foxtrot from a 250' roll and purchased a Sprint sleeving kit to complete the process. Sprint, who also manufacturers sport kites, mentioned in their instructions that came with the sleeving, that a simple, and SINGLE overhand knot first be tied in the sleeved spectra farthest from the end and then, that a second, SINGLE overhand knot be used to tie the free end of the sleeved spectra over the far end of the sleeved line before the first knot thus forming a large loop as follows; knot knot / ========================X=X=====--------------------- | loop of sleeved spectra | unsleeved spectra ^ \ ========================-/ Not only does this easily facilitate attaching the lines to wrist straps with a lark's head hitch, it also makes precise line equalizing simpler as the single overhand knots are easy to untie and adjust while at the same time, apparently still hold very tightly once retied. It's also a very interesting way of absorbing loads on the line...but is this a VALID, SAFE way of doing things? I'd really appreciate any comments on or experiences with results of this method. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 02:24:05 -1000 From: vraun@freenet.niagara.com (Vaino Raun) Message-Id: Organization: Niagara Peninsula Free-Net Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line Ouisie (ouisie@ripco.com) wrote: : I recently purchased a Foxtrot stunt kite from Adventures Kites in FL : because at $68 for a nearly 8' wingspan and Icarex sail, I couldn't : resist...particularly since other kites in that size range commonly sell : for around $200. Is this kite really as great of a performer (does all the : tricks; turtle, helicopter, axels, etc.) as the ads say? Unfortunately, I : have yet to find out. I was trying to fly it yesterday here in Chicago near : the lakefront and even though this is known as the 'windy city' (I have no : idea why), and the Foxtrot is supposed to be able to fly in as little as 3 : or 4 mph wind, the most I was able to accomplish was to get it about 20' : into the air (only after a sharp pull backwards) very briefly and only a : couple of times. Of course at that point, it was every bit as sluggish as : any kite would be when flown to the far right or left of the wind 'window' : for landing. The wind simply wouldn't cooperate...what a bummer!!! Sounds like the bridle needs to be adjusted. If the kite is difficult to launch and does not fly very high, the bridle is set too low. Move the connection point up until it flies well. When you adjust, move it .25 - .50 inch at a time as small adjustments can have quite an impact. As you move the bridle up, the kite flies faster and the pull decreases. The turns aren't as tight also and if the bridle is adjusted too high the kite will not turn well, even to the point of "skidding" instead of turning. A good point for the bridle is generally as low as it can go to give tight spins and to stall well. This adjustment can be found by lowering the bridle until the kite doesn't take off as described by you, then move the point up a bit. Normally the bridle is set higher in light winds and lower in heavier winds. But in very heavy winds moving the bridle up reduces pull and takes some pressure off of the frame. : The second question is about the sleeving of spectra line. I also made a : set of 125' spectra lines for the Foxtrot from a 250' roll and purchased a : Sprint sleeving kit to complete the process. Sprint, who also manufacturers : sport kites, mentioned in their instructions that came with the sleeving, : that a simple, and SINGLE overhand knot first be tied in the sleeved : spectra farthest from the end and then, that a second, SINGLE overhand knot : be used to tie the free end of the sleeved spectra over the far end of the : sleeved line before the first knot thus forming a large loop as follows; : knot knot : / ========================X=X=====--------------------- : | loop of sleeved spectra | unsleeved spectra ^ : \ ========================-/ : Not only does this easily facilitate attaching the lines to wrist straps : with a lark's head hitch, it also makes precise line equalizing simpler as : the single overhand knots are easy to untie and adjust while at the same : time, apparently still hold very tightly once retied. It's also a very : interesting way of absorbing loads on the line...but is this a VALID, SAFE : way of doing things? I'd really appreciate any comments on or experiences : with results of this method. I tend to put at 1 figure 8 at the end then 2 more overhand or figure 8 knots. This does depend on the pull and strength of the line. Earlier on I had some 150 lb pull out through 2 knots so I use 3 for the heavier line. Warm Winds... -- Vaino Raun..... St. Catharines, ONT vraun@freenet.niagara.com Canada = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 03:16:56 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <3r6t88$d3t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line I fly big power kites on spectra with no sleaving, gasp, and have never had a break at the knot. I also don't sleeve any of my finise(sp) kite lines and have never had a problem in the last eight or so years. First i tie the loop with a simple overhand knot, then i tie one more knot with the loose (bitter) end, then a keeper knot in that end. Try it, it works and works well. aoxomoxoa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 20:29:57 -1000 From: Zackmac1@aol.com Message-Id: <950609022954_91398143@aol.com> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line In a message dated 95-06-08 13:18:29 EDT, ahclem0013@aol.com writes: >To: kites@das.harvard.edu >I fly big power kites on spectra with no sleaving, gasp, and have >never >had a break at the knot. I also don't sleeve any of my finise(sp) >kite >lines and have never had a problem in the last eight or so years. > >First i tie the loop with a simple overhand knot, then i tie one more >knot >with the loose (bitter) end, then a keeper knot in that end. > >Try it, it works and works well. > > to sleeve or not to sleeve has always been a heated debate but i agree with your method. years ago we developed Allied's Spectra Fiber into kite line and brought it to kite flyers all over the world. Since then we have flown thousands of hrs. of kite shows here on the Oregon coast and never encouraged sleeving. I haven't replaced any more/less lines than my sleevhead buddies. The double knot with the saftey (keeper) is the ticket though. Rob = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:19:46 -1000 From: Dave Culp Message-Id: <3raad2$k4m@bdt.bdt.com> Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line >I fly big power kites on spectra with no sleaving, gasp, and have never >had a break at the knot. I also don't sleeve any of my finise(sp) >kite lines and have never had a problem in the last eight or s= o years. I'm pleased that you've never had problems. I *know* (from many tests; mine and cordage companies') that you are using lines which a= re at least twice as strong as you need. If you're happy with this, great. Keep it up. You could use lighter, cheaper, less draggy l= ine if you want, by using sewn or spliced loops. Have fun! Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:51:16 -1000 From: Dave Culp Message-Id: <3rnlkk$s8p@bdt.bdt.com> Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line Zackmac1@aol.com wrote: >to sleeve or not to sleeve has always been a heated debate but i agree with >your method. years ago we developed Allied's Spectra Fiber into kite line and >brought it to kite flyers all over the world. Since then we have flown >thousands of hrs. of kite shows here on the Oregon coast and never encouraged >sleeving. I haven't replaced any more/less lines than my sleevhead buddies. >The double knot with the saftey (keeper) is the ticket though. > Shame on you, Rob! ;-) If you worked for Spectra, then you *know* the problem with knots! (Maybe your group was tasked with getting more yardage out the door, and there's more profit in bigger line??) I, too was contacted by Alliedl to test small Spectra cordage. Their correspondance with me said to *never* tie the stuff in knots; always to use splices. Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 20:49:25 -1000 From: Zackmac1@aol.com Message-Id: <950616024925_96004336@aol.com> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line In a message dated 95-06-15 00:36:20 EDT, daveculp@bdt.com writes: >> >Shame on you, Rob! ;-) If you worked for Spectra, then you *know* the >problem with knots! >(Maybe your group was tasked with getting more yardage out the door, >and there's more >profit in bigger line??) > >I, too was contacted by Alliedl to test small Spectra cordage. Their >correspondance with >me said to *never* tie the stuff in knots; always to use splices. > > Nay Dave, not for but with Allied. They were using the line to secure oil rigs to the ocean floor when we (catch the wind) began to have it braided down to 800#, 500, 300 and eventually to12#. You are totally right about splicing retaining max line strength, but if you're gonna knot it you may as well fly it "raw" as sleeve or pad it. I don't even overhand it. I just tie a couple safety knots in the end and double larks head it to the pigtail. It's a good thing. Also, one theory i've heard for the break south of the knot is that the knot gathers the fibers inside the actual bind. those fibers are stressed the most as they leave the knot, within the first 3-5 inches. one half of the line is always tighter than the other side. What think ye? Rob = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 11:24:44 -1000 From: daveculp@bdt.com (Dave Culp) Message-Id: Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA Subject: Re: Knots for Spectra line In article <950616024925_96004336@aol.com>, Zackmac1@aol.com wrote: > Also, one theory i've heard for the break south of the knot is > that the knot gathers the fibers inside the actual bind. those fibers are > stressed the most as they leave the knot, within the first 3-5 inches. one > half of the line is always tighter than the other side. What think ye? > I think you're right. I suspect this is an issue with both sewn loops and even with splices, though the "fluid" nature of the latter probably allows stresses to work themselves out. I really thought this would be an issue with sewn loops, but (in my tests) the sewn loops, while precipitating (causing??) breaks near the loop, broke at such high percentages of line strength, that it seems moot. Dave Culp = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =