Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 20:25:36 -1000 From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com Message-Id: <9307100623.AA01152@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Knots and line stretch (for stunt kites) Connie B writes: >Subj: Knot trouble and Line Length >First, I have problems with Spectra slipping out of knots. I put on the >casing, then tie an overhand knot in the end with both the Spectra and the >casing, then tie the knot onto my swivel connector. I must not be doing it >right, not using the right kinds of knots, or something, because fairly >frequently the Spectra will slip out of the knot throught the casing when >I am flying. How can I stop this? As Marty Sasaki says, most flyers make a loop in the line first, and then attach it. I have had a little bit more trouble with some sleeving, though. I was using this multi-colored stuff and it doesn't seem to snug up on the line quite as well as the plain white sleeving does. I was getting scrunch with it, using the same knot system that was trouble free with the white sleeving. The sleeving should be the proper size for the line weight you are using (I think my multi-colored sleeving is for line heavier than the 150# stuff that I am using) >Secondly, I have the darndest time getting and keeping my lines the same >length. Is there a trick to this? My braided hand straps and my sky-claw >style handles don't seem to have any way to adjust the length, so I end up >untying and re-tying my lines alot. There must be a better way! All spectra line will "stretch" but not necessarily the same amount, manufacturer to manufacturer. Although the same material is used by different line manufacturers, the weave in the line is not all the same. The line has a core in it, and after usage, it snugs down on this core and might account for part of the "stretch". When line is new, try swapping the sides of the kite that the lines are attached to every half hour or so of flying (or, whenever you take a long break). Some flyers have a subconscious tendency to pull harder on one side than the other and this might help make the line stretch more evenly and reduce the frequency of adjustment you have to do. You can also get line that has been pre-stretched and pre-sleeved. Some competition flyers get all their line this way so that they can use the time to practice instead of breaking in line. But, this is expensive. Good winds, Bert Tanaka Digital Equipment West Covina, Ca. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 03:23:23 -1000 From: WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) Message-Id: Organization: Novell, Inc Subject: Re: Knots and line stretch (for stunt kites) In article <9307100623.AA01152@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com writes: >From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com >Subject: Knots and line stretch (for stunt kites) >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 06:25:36 GMT >Connie B writes: >>Subj: Knot trouble and Line Length >>First, I have problems with Spectra slipping out of knots. I put on the >>casing, then tie an overhand knot in the end with both the Spectra and the >>casing, then tie the knot onto my swivel connector. I must not be doing it >>right, not using the right kinds of knots, or something, because fairly >>frequently the Spectra will slip out of the knot throught the casing when >>I am flying. How can I stop this? >As Marty Sasaki says, most flyers make a loop in the line first, and then >attach it. I have had a little bit more trouble with some sleeving, though. >I was using this multi-colored stuff and it doesn't seem to snug up on >the line quite as well as the plain white sleeving does. I was getting >scrunch with it, using the same knot system that was trouble free with >the white sleeving. The sleeving should be the proper size for the >line weight you are using (I think my multi-colored sleeving is for >line heavier than the 150# stuff that I am using) >>Secondly, I have the darndest time getting and keeping my lines the same >>length. Is there a trick to this? My braided hand straps and my sky-claw >>style handles don't seem to have any way to adjust the length, so I end up >>untying and re-tying my lines alot. There must be a better way! >All spectra line will "stretch" but not necessarily the same amount, >manufacturer to manufacturer. Although the same material is used by >different line manufacturers, the weave in the line is not all the same. >The line has a core in it, and after usage, it snugs down on this core >and might account for part of the "stretch". When line is new, try >swapping the sides of the kite that the lines are attached to every >half hour or so of flying (or, whenever you take a long break). Some >flyers have a subconscious tendency to pull harder on one side than the >other and this might help make the line stretch more evenly and reduce >the frequency of adjustment you have to do. >You can also get line that has been pre-stretched and pre-sleeved. Some >competition flyers get all their line this way so that they can use >the time to practice instead of breaking in line. But, this is expensive. >Good winds, > Bert Tanaka Digital Equipment > West Covina, Ca. I tried something new (to me) that seemed to work very well to get rid of the line stretch. Behind our apartment we have one of those aluminum patio roofs. It is not large, but it has 5 metal support posts spaced about 5 or 6 feet apart. I tied a loop in one end of the new line (unsleeved) and attached it to the post about 5 feet off the ground. I used one of those knots you use in scouts, but can't ever remember the name; I think it was a clove hitch. Anyway, I went to the post at the other end of the patio, and wrapped around it and kept wrapping back and forth until I had my line pulled tightly back and forth from the two poles. Once I had it fastened down, I went digging in our storage shed for heavy things. I found a couple of buckets, which I filled partway with sand. Using a rope, I suspended the buckets from the line between every post (3 or 4 buckets, I believe). I let it hang overnight. That seems to have been enough, because I had almost no stretching at all later after sleeving the lines. I have found that I prefer longer amounts of sleeving so I have plenty of line to work with when adjusting them for stretch. On this particular set of lines, I think I only had to tie one small know in one line to get them pretty much even. I know... nothing earth shattering, but it may give someone else some ideas on how to stretch line. Someone out here once mentioned they had tied it to a truck and were pulling and putting their weight into it. (Maybe it was Ron Reich? They were team flyers...) Must have looked funny to see 4 people trying to fly a truck! Wes -------------------------------------------------- Wes Voss Internet: wvoss@novell.com MHS: WVOSS@NOVELL Standard Disclaimer: Yeah, these are my opinions, and no one else's... You know the rest... -------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 02:58:02 -1000 From: danr@crash.cts.com (Dan Rubesh) Message-Id: <1993Jul12.055802.3229@crash> Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA Subject: Re: Knots and line stretch (for stunt kites) Line stretching and knot problems.. I've been following this thread about line stretch and knot problems with some interest and figured it was time to put in my $0.27 worth.. When I first started with this Spectra material, I went through a very parallel learning curve to that some of the folks out there on the net are experiencing now.. So what follows are some of my experiences gathered from making/selling pre-stretched, matched Spectra line sets.. If any of my customers or fellow flyers show any interest in making their own line sets, I'll show them everything I've learned, give them some sleeving material and a piano wire fid, then they can buy bulk line (from me or whoever), usually somewhat less costly than ready-made line sets.. First, I match the braided Dacron sleeving to the Spectra line as follows.. 50# Spectra ---> 30# Dacron 80# Spectra ---> 50# Dacron 135/ 150# Spectra ---> 80# Dacron 200# Spectra ---> 130# Dacron 300# Spectra ---> 130# Dacron 400/ 500# Spectra ---> 200/250# Dacron or I'll get some 3mm static line from a mountaineering shop and strip the core out of it and use the braided shell for sleeving for the heavier lines.. I cut the sleeving to 12" to 14" _equal_ pieces.. Exact measurement isn't real critical but _equality_ is.. I melt the ends of the dacron in a flame to keep it from unraveling, then using a fid of .010"-.015" diameter piano wire doubled over I poke the folded end of the piano wire through the side of the braiding sleeving just beyond the melted end and run it down the center of the sleeving, exiting through the side just before I get to the opposite melted end.. I usually string all four pieces of sleeving required for a line set on the fid before starting to sleeve the lines.. Next item is to measure/match/stretch the lines to length.. Because I make a fairly large number of line sets over the course of a season, I buy Spectra in 1000'-3000' spools.. The major advantage to this is that when I make line sets I'm assured that both sides of the set came from the same manufacturing batch and will have the same stretch characteristics.. If you buy 100' or 150' spools of line to make 100' or 150' line sets, you have no way of knowing that they came from the same run lot of line. Because of this, if your local supplier doesn't have bulk line available, get the longest spools you can (like 300') so you know that both lines came from the same batch.. To measure, I have a 100' fiberglass tape in my line bag, but pacing off the length will be OK for the average weekend flyer.. To pre-stretch the lines I use a stout piece of rope and a large carabiner(sp?), looping the rope around a lamp post or tree or trailer hitch and tying it off.. Clip the carabiner to the rope loop and pass the bitter end of the Spectra line through the carabiner. Then I use a screwdriver or stake as an axle for the line spool and wrap the end of the Spectra a few turns around the stake, and walk the line out to whatever length I'm making line sets.. For discussion sake, I'll use 100' for a number. At the 100'length, I'll cut the line away from the spool.. At this point I have a 200' piece of Spectra that runs from me to the carabiner and back to me with 2 bitter ends.. I pass the end of the Spectra through the loop in the piano wire fid that has the sleeving strung on it, double the Spectra over, and work off one piece of sleeving from the fid over the Spectra, running the sleeving a foot or so down the line. Repeat this for the other bitter end of the Spectra. Then I burn the ends of the Spectra to >From a lump that's difficult for the sleeving to get back off of. Then I 'milk' the end of the sleeving even with end of the Spectra and grip both firmly then milk the opposite end of the sleeving away from the bitter end to make the sleeving fit as tightly as possible to the Spectra and tie off a loop with a figure-8 knot.. I've found that a figure-8 works better (for me) than stacked overhand or double overhand or surgeon's knot. Now I have the same 200' piece of Spectra, sleeved, looped and knotted at the bitter ends.. Now I'll again use the stake or screwdriver (round, smooth shank, please), passing it through the loops in the Spectra line and pulling with a smooth even pull enough to get the initial stretch out of the lines and holding some pressure on it for a little while.. Here's where some sense of feel comes into play.. Obviously, you can't lay into 50/80# line as hard as you'd get into 300# line.. One line manufacturer suggested to use about 50 of the line's rated strength as a stretch load. Now, stake the looped ends of the line (loosely, you'll need to get the other [bight] end off of the carabiner) and go back to where you started with the rope/carabiner combination. Unhook the spectra from the carabiner and use another stake to pull the line so it's even and this way you can find the _exact_ center of the line loop and cut it into 2 _equal_ pieces. Sleeve the 2 new bitter ends as before and make loops with your choice of knot.. Now you have a pre-stretched _matched_ set of lines that are ready to wind up, or fly with.. I find that all I use the Moran Equalizer for is to periodically check my work. Before winding or flying, I mark both ends of one line with a red magic marker to use as the left (or right) line, as your style dictates.. I know that most kite folks use red for right, but I've been around boats and aircraft all of my life, and red is the _left_ navigating light under that convention.. Whatever your preference, if you use the marked line _consistently_ for one side, then you don't have to stop and think about which hand is for which line, you can just pick up your lines and launch.. It'd easier to fly the twists out of the line than to mess with them on the ground, IMHO.. Ob. Disclaimer: I am a stunt kite dealer and carry some of the above mentioned product(s). As such, my opinions may tend to be somewhat subjective. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Good Winds and Tight Lines! Dan Rubesh Wind Wizard, Purveyor of UUCP: {ucsd, nosc}!crash!danr GO Stunt Kites & Accessories ARPA: crash!danr@nosc.mil FLY A P.O. Box 5747 INET: danr@crash.cts.com KITE! Ventura, CA 93005 (805) 859-5654 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 07:17:10 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jul12.171710.5990@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard OIT Network Services Subject: Re: Knots and line stretch (for stunt kites) This reminds me of something that I often do with bridle materials, but it makes a lot of sense to do with flying line too. Find yourself an appropriately large single line kite, and use your flying line to fly the kite. Leave it up for an hour or so, and then wind the line back in. It should be nicely stretched out... In article WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) writes: >I tried something new (to me) that seemed to work very well to get rid of the >line stretch. Behind our apartment we have one of those aluminum patio roofs. >It is not large, but it has 5 metal support posts spaced about 5 or 6 feet >apart. > >I tied a loop in one end of the new line (unsleeved) and attached it to the >post about 5 feet off the ground. I used one of those knots you use in scouts, >but can't ever remember the name; I think it was a clove hitch. > >Anyway, I went to the post at the other end of the patio, and wrapped around >it and kept wrapping back and forth until I had my line pulled tightly back >and forth from the two poles. > >Once I had it fastened down, I went digging in our storage shed for heavy >things. I found a couple of buckets, which I filled partway with sand. Using >a rope, I suspended the buckets from the line between every post (3 or 4 >buckets, I believe). I let it hang overnight. > >That seems to have been enough, because I had almost no stretching at all >later after sleeving the lines. I have found that I prefer longer amounts of >sleeving so I have plenty of line to work with when adjusting them for >stretch. On this particular set of lines, I think I only had to tie one small >know in one line to get them pretty much even. > >I know... nothing earth shattering, but it may give someone else some ideas on >how to stretch line. Someone out here once mentioned they had tied it to a >truck and were pulling and putting their weight into it. (Maybe it was Ron >Reich? They were team flyers...) Must have looked funny to see 4 people trying >to fly a truck! > >Wes > >-------------------------------------------------- >Wes Voss >Internet: wvoss@novell.com >MHS: WVOSS@NOVELL > >Standard Disclaimer: Yeah, these are my opinions, >and no one else's... You know the rest... >-------------------------------------------------- -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =