Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 21:26:40 -1000 From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com Message-Id: <9403010725.AA19812@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Kiting tips I like the Moran winders. They're flat cards you figure eight your lines up on. What I like to do is to put a loop of heavy bungi cord in the finger hole, just large enough so that you can stretch it over either ear, to hold the ends of the wound line. When unwinding line, you can just hold on to the bungi and the card will see saw back and forth easily as the line comes off. The poles of the chain link fence that surround the school field where I sometimes fly were put in at 10' intervals. That seems to be a standard distance around here. If I secure one end of my new line to one of these poles, it is a simple matter to measure off lines quickly by counting the number of poles to the end of the line. On the end of some dog leashes there is a spring lock connector that has a spring loaded pin and hook arrangement that you open by pushing the pin down with a thumb lever. You can get a connector like this that has a spring lock at both ends, cheap, at most hardware stores. This and a two foot length of chain and you have a quick and easy way to secure line to a pole for stretching. Sorry, but I don't know the correct name for this connector. If the hardware store has fishing supplies, you can pick up a roll of 130# dacron fishing line and with 400 yards of the stuff, have enough sleeving material for lines up to 200#, or bridle line, to last you a lifetime. I use a brand called Izorline and it comes waxed. Some Spectra lines come with this really cheesy sleeving material and this fishing line is easier to work with, doesn't unbraid in the middle, and is less "scrunch" prone. Some Spectra comes with great sleeving material, but I always like to have extra stuff on hand, anyways. Good Winds, Bert Tanaka West Covina, Ca. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 11:32:54 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Kiting tips tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com writes: >I like the Moran winders. No doubt they are excellent. I loose winders, I break winders, I find that I havn't got room for them in my bag. I wind lines round the handle. If I have more handles than lines, I wrap round cans, bottles, anything. There is an international standard for doing this: you wind *clockwise*. Most right handed people find this the natural way to wind if you hold the can in your right hand and wind with your right. To unwind, hold the can in your left hand and unwind anti-clockwise. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 18:10:12 -1000 From: pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) Message-Id: <2l13j4$2l1@nigel.msen.com> Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562) Subject: Re: Kiting tips Andrew Beattie (andrew@tug.com) wrote: : I wind lines round the handle. If I have more handles than lines, I : wrap round cans, bottles, anything. There is an international standard : for doing this: you wind *clockwise*. Most right handed people find : this the natural way to wind if you hold the can in your right hand and : wind with your right. To unwind, hold the can in your left hand : and unwind anti-clockwise. -- I prefer figure-8 (flat) winders when I have them available, but use cylinders and reels (I especially like hand-casting reels) also. When using a round wind there is a very simple way to keep the twists out of the line that involves no remembering handedness or direction of winding: you *always* put line on and off from the same end of the reel and you *never* let the reel turn when letting line out. The hand-casting reels are asymetrical so there is no problem there; I write ON/OFF on one side of my Halo reels and the like. Turn the reel sideways and the line streams off with almost no resistance. --Pete "A man who would spend money on a psychiatrist needs his head examined." = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 17:12:58 -1000 From: brian@nds.com (Brian Dockter) Message-Id: <94Mar3.152231pst.8143@rainier.nds.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Kiting tips On Feb 28, 11:26pm, tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com wrote: > Subject: Kiting tips > If the hardware store has fishing supplies, you can pick up a roll of 130# > dacron fishing line and with 400 yards of the stuff, have enough sleeving > material for lines up to 200#, or bridle line, to last you a lifetime. > I use a brand called Izorline and it comes waxed. Some Spectra lines come > with this really cheesy sleeving material and this fishing line is easier to > work with, doesn't unbraid in the middle, and is less "scrunch" prone. Some > Spectra comes with great sleeving material, but I always like to have > extra stuff on hand, anyways. Speaking of "scrunch", are there any good methods to help prevent the dacron sleeving from "scrunching" with use? Currently, when I sleeve my own line, I knot both ends before I tie the loop. This doesn't seem to help. Is the only solution to re-sleeve the line every so often? Brian -- Brian Dockter | Northwest Digital Systems UUCP: uunet!nds!brian | Voice: 206-524-0014 Internet: brian@nds.com | FAX: 206-524-3440 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:33:44 -1000 From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington) Message-Id: Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems Subject: Re: Kiting tips Regarding scrunch... I use 135# dacron for 80# and 150# spectra with good effect. I also use a figure-eight not instead of one or two overhand knots. I'm careful to make sure that both lines are completely parallel throughout the knot and don't twist inside of the knot. I haven't noticed any scrunching with this combination. The figure-eight knot is easier to untie than one or two overhands should you want to make an adjustment. -- Lee Hetherington ilh@lcs.mit.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:18:14 -1000 From: pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) Message-Id: <2l7u17$248@nigel.msen.com> Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562) Subject: Re: Kiting tips Jeffrey C. Burka (jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu) wrote: : In article <94Mar3.152231pst.8143@rainier.nds.com> brian@nds.com (Brian Dockter) writes: The single most effective thing I've found to avoid scrunching is to tie the double-overhand knot extremely carefully. I lay the two strands parallel the entire way through the knot. If they cross over each other, I seem to get scrunch, if they don't, I don't. --Pete = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:41:08 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <2l7ob4$516@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Subject: Re: Kiting tips In article <94Mar3.152231pst.8143@rainier.nds.com> brian@nds.com (Brian Dockter) writes: > >Speaking of "scrunch", are there any good methods to help prevent the >dacron sleeving from "scrunching" with use? There was a huge thread on this a long, long time ago. Anne--did the results make it into the FAQ? It might be worthwhile... Most of my lines are sleeved with the shell from some old 200# skybond. My method is to thread the line through the sleeve, then tie a knot at the end of the spectra (so it won't get pulled back through the sleeving in case of an accident during re-tying). I then tie a single overhand knot at the loose end of the sleeving, double over the sleeve, and tie either one or two overhand knots to create the loop, depending on how long the sleeve is. One thing I've found to be important is to watch for 'scrunch'. Before the line seizes up, just untie the overhand(s) that form the loop and re-stretch the sleeve on the line. Having the single overhand knot at the end helps hold the position of the sleeving so you don't need to even out the lines again. You won't need to re-sleeve the lines; just untie, smooth, re-tie. Takes just a minute. I would also note that, when possible, use a sleeve diameter appropriate to the line. The only line I can think of that I have consistent trouble with is the quad set I have which is 45# line with the aforementioned shell of 200# skybond. Jeff (who remembers having to cut off the ends of some 80# lines that had completely strangled a swivel clip...back when he still *used* swivel clips... ;-) -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "Everything is still with a fear of never coming out | |Suffering Bad Grammar| Never following through / Never ever finishing | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | What we wanted to do." -- Melissa Ferrick | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 20:13:13 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Captain Pugets Roadside Taco Stand Subject: Re: Kiting tips In article <2l7ob4$516@umd5.umd.edu>, Jeffrey C. Burka wrote: >In article <94Mar3.152231pst.8143@rainier.nds.com> brian@nds.com (Brian Dockter) writes: > >> >>Speaking of "scrunch", are there any good methods to help prevent the >>dacron sleeving from "scrunching" with use? [ ] >I would also note that, when possible, use a sleeve diameter appropriate >to the line. The only line I can think of that I have consistent trouble >with is the quad set I have which is 45# line with the aforementioned shell >of 200# skybond. [ ] >completely strangled a swivel clip...back when he still *used* swivel >clips... ;-) > >-- >|Jeffrey C. Burka | "Everything is still with a fear of never coming out | >|Suffering Bad Grammar| Never following through / Never ever finishing | >|jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | What we wanted to do." -- Melissa Ferrick | I've used 80# Dacron cut 10 inches (~25 cm) to sleeve 45# line. I have room to tie two overhand knots 1/2 inch (4 mm) apart and the loop is a convienent size to manipulete in a good wind. I still *use* swivels. I use ball bearing swivels on the tails I fly on the sides of my rev. They do liketa ># spin #< Do I get negative points for using a swivel on a fighter? If I wind it back on the can after turning only one direction ... -- "Aunt Jamimah Materialized In My Hot Tub And Demanded A Maytag Washer & Dryer" Claims Queen Elizabeth -- Brian Johnsen johnsen@eskimo.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 11:10:08 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <2ldgrg$39p@pobox.csc.fi> Organization: Centre for Scintific Computing Subject: Re: Kiting tips In <2l7ob4$516@umd5.umd.edu> jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >In article <94Mar3.152231pst.8143@rainier.nds.com> brian@nds.com (Brian Dockter) writes: >> >>Speaking of "scrunch", are there any good methods to help prevent the >>dacron sleeving from "scrunching" with use? >There was a huge thread on this a long, long time ago. Anne--did the >results make it into the FAQ? It might be worthwhile... Jeff, I am afraid we are geting old, I felt it was long ago, too, but actually it was less than a year... I still waste my disk space:-) Simo --------- From rec.kites 199X From: sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) Subject: Sport Kite Line Loop Scrunch Date: 18 Mar 92 19:21:02 GMT Dear Gang, I was wondereing if anybody had a solution to a problem with sleved stunt kite lines. After flying for a while in a good stiff breeze, I've noticed that the sleeving is all "scrunched up" and the loop is reduced in size. So far I've been using a bowline knot to form the loop and pulling it as tight as I can, but still the scrunching returns. Is this normal and just one of the "joys" of flying or can something be done? I've tought about using bee's wax on the inner line. I asked a friend and he has the same problem. He uses two knots but the same thing happens. Well any input would be welcomed. Thanks. -- The Mad Hata From rec.kites 199X From: lfk@amdahl.amdahl.com (Lynn Kerby) Subject: Sport Kite Line Loop Scrunch Date: 19 Mar 92 02:59:30 GMT In article <52459@hydra.gatech.EDU> sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) writes: > > I was wondereing if anybody had a solution to a problem > with sleved stunt kite lines. After flying for a while in a good > stiff breeze, I've noticed that the sleeving is all "scrunched up" > and the loop is reduced in size. So far I've been using a bowline > knot to form the loop and pulling it as tight as I can, but still > the scrunching returns. > > Is this normal and just one of the "joys" of flying or > can something be done? I've tought about using bee's wax on the > inner line. I asked a friend and he has the same problem. He uses > two knots but the same thing happens. > > Well any input would be welcomed. Thanks. > > -- > > The Mad Hata > > "Hey, Mon....Tako Kichi!" I don't know how you are tying your lines, but I have never experienced the problem you describe. A long time flyer showed me how to set them up the first time I upgraded my lines to kevlar (my kite originally came set up with some braided dacron and I flew that way for a while). I assume that the following setup is pretty common, just about everyone I know or have flown with does it pretty much the same way. Maybe we all had the same teacher...... Within the limitations of ascii graphics, this is how I tie my lines. 1. Sleeve the line and arrange the sleeve as shown below (end of line is on the right). ________________________________________________________________ ----////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////- ---------------------------------------------------------------- ^^^ ^^^ 2. Tie simple overhand knot at each end of sleeving (after adjusting for length). I tie the "outer" end first on one end of each line (on the right above) making sure to stretch the sleeving as before tying the "inside" knot (at left above). For the other end, I usually tie the inner knot first as described below. 3. Loop the sleeved section over so that the two endpoint knots are aligned. _________________________________________________________ -\XX\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\+\ ---------------------------------------------------------\+\ _________________________________________________________/+/ ----/XX//////////////////////////////////////////////////////+/ --------------------------------------------------------- ^^^^ ^^^^ 4. Tie simple overhand knot in the looped sleeved line at both locations identified by '^^^^'. I usually tie the "inner" one (on the left above) first and then double check line lengths before tying the other. 5. Repeat the process for the other 3 ends and don't forget to mark them somehow. (I use a red white-board (LCS DRY ERASE) marker to color the section between the knots on one set of lines.) It seems tedious at first, and you might have some trouble getting the line lengths adjusted the first few times. One thing I have found to make it easier is to tie off one end of each line as shown above, then stake them down and walk them out. I then pull on the two lines with the same force (as close as possible) and make a single mark across both lines (with the red marker) at the point where the line meets the sleeving. Tie the "inner" knot first, and stretch the sleeving and hope that the line end is still sticking out the other end! A while back I bought one of those line adjusting gauge things to make setting up equal length lines a bit easier. It does help, but it probably isn't worth the money (I was just too lazy to make one). Hope this helps, and feel free to pass it on if it is useful. -- Lynn Kerby - Amdahl Corporation From rec.kites 199X From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Subject: Sport Kite Line Loop Scrunch Date: 19 Mar 92 03:33:30 GMT In article <52459@hydra.gatech.EDU> sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) writes: [sleeve bunching] > Is this normal and just one of the "joys" of flying or >can something be done? I've tought about using bee's wax on the >inner line. I asked a friend and he has the same problem. He uses >two knots but the same thing happens. Yes it's normal, yes it's annoying as all get out! I used to have terrible problems with bunching, especially with the "skybond" I use for sleeving (I have scads of skybond, 110# and 200# from 5 years ago before I knew any better. I pull out the kevlar and use the dacron for sleeving. (I also use it for train lines)). At one point I had to cut some lines so I could replace the sleeving. It had gotten to the point where I couldn't do anything about the sleeving. I still have occasional problems, but it's very rare. My current method is to tie a single knot at the very end of the sleeving where the end of the line pokes out. I then use a single overhand knot to create the loop. I've been doing this for quite a while, and have not yet needed to unbunch any of my lines. Note--the general consensus seems to be that two overhand knots for the loop are better than one, as there's less chance of the line slipping within the sleeve. This is probably true, and when I have enough sleeving that I can make the second knot and still have a good-sized loop, I usually throw it in. I have no idea why that single knot at the very end of the sleeve would stop the piece from bunching, but it does seem to work. Jeff From rec.kites 199X From: sc5@prism.gatech.EDU (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) Subject: Sport Kite Line Scruntch I got several responses to my inquiry regarding sport kite line scruntch. In a nut shell, recommendations were: 1) Use a diffent knot - An overhand knot, a surgeon's knot or a figure 8 knot 2) Double the knot 3) Use smaller sleeving material 4) Stretch out the sleeving material repeatedly before knotting 5) Double the line to be sleeved before sleeving Here is what I did and it seemed to work. PS - I did this before getting any replies and it incorporates several of the suggestions. 1) Used 50 lb. braided dacron for sleeving 2) Ran the flying line, typically Spectra, through bee's wax and got a good coating on it then ran the sleeving over it 3) Heat sealed (melted) the frayed line ends together ------------------ Sleeving ----------------------- Spectra ------------------ Sleeving ^ |_________ Melted together here 4) Strectched out the sleeving repeated till it was a good tight fit 5) Used an overhand knot to form the loop and pulled it really tight PPS - The sleeving was about 9" (nine inches) in lenght. After flying all weekend a Myrtle Beach, SC, USA, in winds that were anywhere >From a 3 to a 5 on the Beaufort (SP?) scale (15-30 mph) none of the lines exhibited any of the dreaded scruntch. Well, I hope that helps. Thanks to all that sent replies. I really appreciate everbody responding. Good winds! The Mad Hata "Hey, Mon....Tako Kichi!" -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:43:07 -1000 From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com Message-Id: <9403070741.AA23691@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Kiting Tips _____________________________________________________________________________ From: SWAM1::DECPA::"brian@nds.com" "Brian Dockter" 4-MAR-1994 09:12:43.45 Subj: Re: Kiting tips Speaking of "scrunch", are there any good methods to help prevent the dacron sleeving from "scrunching" with use? Currently, when I sleeve my own line, I knot both ends before I tie the loop. This doesn't seem to help. Is the only solution to re-sleeve the line every so often? Brian ______________________________________________________________________________ I knot my sleeving same as you, Brian and haven't had the scrunch problem for some time, now. Could be just the material you use. 1. Use sleeving that isn't too big for the line. I.E., if its your lighter lines that are scrunching, use 100# dacron for the 80# and under fly lines (200# dacron might be a little too big). I've been using 130# waxed dacron fishing line for line weights of 80# to 200# without any problems. In any case, BE SURE to stretch and squeeze the sleeving down tight around the line by holding one end and pulling the length between your pinched thumb and forefinger before you tie any knots. I don't know if it makes any difference, but some of the sleeving included with lines is too loose. I prefer the tighter weave on the fishing line because its easier to thread, and doesn't unravel in the middle with use. 2. Just a guess, but I think longer sleeving lengths help. I have been cutting the sleeving to 14" lengths. You need a long fid for this. I like the long lengths because they're easier to work with. 3. Another guess - but I think waxed sleeving locks up better. A related tip - Kevin Mayeshiro puts wax on his bridles if the adjustments keep slipping (uses surfboard wax, what else? He's in Hawaii). 8-) Hope this helps, Bert = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:23:20 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <2lfreo$ovm@pobox.csc.fi> Organization: Centre for Scintific Computing Subject: Re: Kiting tips In <2ldgrg$39p@pobox.csc.fi> salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) writes: >Jeff, I am afraid we are geting old, I felt it was long ago, too, >but actually it was less than a year... It seems I am the one who's getting old, cannot keep track of current year anymore:-0 Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =