Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 08:54:46 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jun17.185446.9621@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers As I've said, I'm involved in the planning of the Boston Area Stunt Kite Championships. BASKC is a regional competition but has a full compliment of events, including: Novice Individual Precision Intermediate Individual Precision Intermediate Ind. Ballet Experienced Individual Precision Experienced Ind. Ballet Masters Individual Precision Masters Ind. Ballet Experienced Team Precision Exp. Team Ballet Masters Team Precision Masters Team Ballet Open Individual Quadline Ballet Open Individual Freestyle Experienced Pairs Ballet Masters Pairs Ballet Open Team Train Open Team Quadline That's 17 events. Since we are a smaller competition, we don't have heats for any of the events, except possibly Novice Individual Precision. This means that we need 17 judging panels and 17 field crews. Each judging panel consists of either 3 or 5 judges. Each field crew consists of 4 people, 2 line judges, a pit boss, and a field director. If we use 5 judge panels, 5 is much better than 3, and 4 person field crews, that means we need 153 people to put on this competition. Even if we have everyone work three events each, that means we need 51 people. Being a small event, we expect around 100 entrants. Of these, maybe 30 feel qualified as judges. Beginning to see the problem? What do we do? Well, we have some 3 judge panels, and work some people to death. Fortunately for us, some people don't mind working to death, they even volunteer for it. Also, the pit boss and the line judges don't need much training. Unfortunately, getting volunteers for pit boss and line judging is sometimes impossible. The AKA nationals last year had a similar problem. While they didn't have Intermediate and Novice events, there were a lot of competitors, so there were heats (and finals). The number of people who felt they were qualified (and who the head judge felt were qualified) was still a pretty small number. What happened in Lubbock? They used 3 judge panels for some events and they worked some people to death. So, 30 people came to Lubbock, paid their way, paid the entry fee, and worked themselves to death for 4 days. If the sport is to grow, and if we don't want to end up burning people out, then the number of judges has to grow. Even including the points that Steve and I have been arguing about, I believe that this is the number one problem facing competitive stunt kiting today. Events can't afford to hire "professional judges" even if they existed, transportation and lodding costs would force the entry fees into the stratosphere (wherever that is ;-). So, events have to rely on the flyers to volunteer to be judges. Some events have big money behind them, so they can afford to pay for people to come to their events. Many Japanese events do this, and some European events, and Canadian events do this as well. A few in the USA can do this. Judging is not easy, you have to consider all of the points that we've been debating plus a bunch more that haven't been brought out. The rewards aren't very good either, having an irate competitor yell at you because they feel that they have been cheated is no fun. My conclusion: If you are an experienced competitor, and you don't volunteer to judge or otherwise help at a competition, you are hurting the future of competitive stunt kiting. People like me, who pay their own way to events, pay a registration fee to compete, pay for lodging, and end up working, are going to get burned out eventually if they don't get some help soon. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 12:41:45 -1000 From: Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) Message-Id: <9306172241.AA28569@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: -] ... alot of good points deleted ... -] -] Judging is not easy, you have to consider all of the points that we've -] been debating plus a bunch more that haven't been brought out. The -] rewards aren't very good either, having an irate competitor yell at -] you because they feel that they have been cheated is no fun. -] -] My conclusion: If you are an experienced competitor, and you don't -] volunteer to judge or otherwise help at a competition, you are hurting -] the future of competitive stunt kiting. People like me, who pay their -] own way to events, pay a registration fee to compete, pay for lodging, -] and end up working, are going to get burned out eventually if they -] don't get some help soon. -] -- One of the problems for a competitor to get involved with judging is the coordination of WHEN to judge and WHEN to compete. As a team flyer, my ONLY focus at a competition is the next team event I'm going to fly in. I have only 1 requirement when volunteering my time. That requirement is that I will NOT judge an event prior to my team event. I need to keep my focus on the competition and I can't do that if I am judging immediately before I compete. This may sound petty to some. To others this may sound very reasonable. To the competition organizers that I've volunteered my time to, ALL of them have accepted my condititions and scheduled me to judge AFTER I compete. You might think that's the end of my story... and your probably asking "Whats the point"?. The point is this, in EVERY case the event order was changed around at the last minute and the event I was scheduled to judge ended up BEFORE the my event. In that situation, I don't judge. And the competition organizers end up scrambling to find a replacement for me. What I'm getting after is that many of us DO WANT to help out, but it is not always possible. Perhaps someday Air Art will be good enough that we can walk onto the field from four different directions (after each of us has judged different events) and compete to the best of our ability. But I doubt that will ever come to pass. In the meantime, competition organizers will need to accomodate my 'dont judge before I fly' rule AND keep to the posted schedule if they wish my assistance. The first doesn't seem to be a problem. The second is ALWAYS a problem. Darrin -] Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications -] sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street -] 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 -] Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 22:45:47 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers In article <1993Jun17.185446.9621@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: [post deleted...] >If the sport is to grow, and if we don't want to end up burning people >out, then the number of judges has to grow. Perhaps there's another alternative. Let's look at the way other sports are run. Take baseball for instance. For "little league", it's usually a casual gathering of more-or-less knowledgible folks. It gets more serious and more comprehensive (line judges, base umpires, instant-replays) as you go up the latter of level of play. In short, the "novice class" of baseball is not as expensive to coordinate as the Major Leagues. I've seen some events charge a smaller entry fees for Novice class flyers. Perhaps it might be wise to charge different fees for the different classes-- the higher the class, the more the cost. In turn, you can judge the Novice classes more "casually" (perhaps without the full compliment of line-judges and judges), and really give the Master's class teams and individuals the proffesional treatment. Master's class flyers in particular are now a days often sponsored by some for-profit company, anyhow--I'm sure they'd be willing to pay extra to be given the extra attention required. I think it makes sense that: 1. You should offer different products. 2. People should be required to pay more for higher quality products. This "gradation" would cut down on the total number of personnel necessary, and, if the economies of scale get large enough, open the door for full-time paid judges and line crew. It costs up to $800 per person for a company to sponsor a flier for a competition. Will another $100-per break the bank? Mabey, mabey not. The point is, there's probably some balance in there, as long as you follow rules 1 & 2 above: give people "what they pay for", or, "make people pay for what they use". Also--and I think this is already happening--event organizers need to get to be better money-makers (for the BIG events that is--Regionals are probably a different story). In the big events, there's a lot that could be made selling "advertising space" and retail licenses, etc. Also, events could offer discounts to participants who work the event--which would encourage more people to "volunteer" their time--particularly to do rather boring tasks such as line judging. When I go to a competition, I usually applaud loudly at the event workers when they are introduced at dinner. Even still, I always feel a touch of guilt becuase I know that I'm so concentrated (etc., I'll explain below) on my own flying that I could not be one of them. I'd feel much better if I knew that these people were waived their entry fees, and/or given actual money for their trouble. ****** Let me give an example of another problem, that I just eluded to above. Personally, I've only worked at a few events. This was not out of laziness, but out of the fact that I didn't know where to sign up, or if people were needed at all, or if I was important enough to be named an event worker. Event organizers need to "advertise" better for event workers. Remember that a competition serves: 1) The competitors, 2) Specific Kite businesses, 3) specific non-kite related sponsors, 4) the Kite Industry in general (not necessarily in this order). When you're looking for people, or money to pay for people, look to the list above. It as simple a matter as keeping track of who the servers are serving. (Which is not a simple matter at all, but at least we can try.) ****** The above ideas correspond mostly to larger events. I know smaller events don't throw a lot of money around, but the principle is still the same: if you have a small, low-budget event, keep your ideas small--keep your workforce requirements small. One example we have (had--I think the event's expanding this year) here in San Francisco is Craig Wong's Golden Gate Challenge. I thought that the event was a marvel of frugality. It didn't have a Master's class (which made it so he had a plethora of free judges around), it was one (well-timed) day, the food was burgers-on-the-beach, etc. The entry fees were only about $10 (I think that included lunch). This event was pulled-off perfectly (good job Craig). I don't think that Craig is going to get "burt out" anytime soon: he paced himself and kept his event to a managible size. You might be real enthusiastic about volunteering your own time and effort--but burning out is not a good way to spend your time--for you, or the competitors. As event organizer, burning out a group of volunteers won't do anybody much good, either. If you want to do a really "big" event, you'd better get good at money management and money making. If you don't want to deal with that, keep your event small... ****** -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "You'll never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator." -- Lisa Simpson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 05:29:06 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jun18.152906.19031@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers In article <9306172241.AA28569@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM>, Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: >One of the problems for a competitor to get involved with judging is the >coordination of WHEN to judge and WHEN to compete. As a team flyer, my >ONLY focus at a competition is the next team event I'm going to fly in. I >have only 1 requirement when volunteering my time. That requirement is that >I will NOT judge an event prior to my team event. I need to keep my focus... This is a reasonable thing, and as Darrin points out, something that organizers do as a matter or course. As Darrin points out later there is often scrambling when things get re-arranged, and often he ends up not judging. That's okay too. It's certainly not his fault. He has honestly tried to help. The proplem is that there are very few people like Darrin around. Most don't even try. Most don't ask if they can help and don't respond when help is asked for. >... In the meantime, competition organizers will need to accomodate >my 'dont judge before I fly' rule AND keep to the posted schedule if they wish >my assistance. The first doesn't seem to be a problem. The second is ALWAYS >a problem. It shouldn't be a problem, but it usually is. I've seen events run on time and it really shouldn't be so hard... -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 06:00:39 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jun18.160039.19294@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers In article , steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: ...officiating in baseball deleted... >I've seen some events charge a smaller entry fees for Novice class flyers. >Perhaps it might be wise to charge different fees for the different classes-- >the higher the class, the more the cost. In turn, you can judge the Novice >classes more "casually" (perhaps without the full compliment of line-judges >and judges), and really give the Master's class teams and individuals the >proffesional treatment. Actually, the reverse is the case. You need all of those people for Novice class flyers, except you can usually get by with just 3 judges. The Novice needs the field director to tell him/her what to do. The pit boss needs to keep track of novices since they don't the routine well enough to do the right thing. Line judges are there largely for safety purposes and Novices need the most watching there. Everyone who competes deserves to be treated equally. The Novice is no less serious than the Master and shouldn't be treated differently. > ... Master's class flyers in particular are now a days >often sponsored by some for-profit company, anyhow--I'm sure they'd be >willing to pay extra to be given the extra attention required. This is the case for some, not many, and certainly not most, flyers. Most flyers pay their own way. There are only a handful of kite companies that can afford to sponsor people or teams in a big way. With the current divisions one has to be careful about making the prices too high. If you have to be a sponsored flyer to be competitive, then kiting has made it impossible for most flyers to compete. I think that this is reasonable to do in the future, when there is more money, but right now there are too few events to do this. >Also--and I think this is already happening--event organizers need to get >to be better money-makers (for the BIG events that is--Regionals are probably >a different story). In the big events, there's a lot that could be made >selling "advertising space" and retail licenses, etc. This is really hard to do. Even the BIG events have a tough time. There were rumors that the World Cup wouldn't be held this year, a big sponsor pulled out. Because of skillful negotiating another sponsor was found. The numbers can be daunting even for the big events. Let's assume that you are running two competition fields, and that you alternate judging staff, so judges work every other slot. That's 20 judges. And let's say that it costs $1000 a judge, that's $20,000. >Also, events could offer discounts to participants who work the event--which >would encourage more people to "volunteer" their time--particularly to do >rather boring tasks such as line judging. This often happens. At least you get lunch... >When I go to a competition, I usually applaud loudly at the event workers >when they are introduced at dinner. Even still, I always feel a touch of >guilt becuase I know that I'm so concentrated (etc., I'll explain below) >on my own flying that I could not be one of them. And you should feel guilty. You should work, if you can. If you can't, then that's fine. I think that Darrin's restriction of not judging just before performing is very reasonable. You should also have time to eat, take care of biological things, etc. >Let me give an example of another problem, that I just eluded to above. >Personally, I've only worked at a few events. This was not out of laziness, >but out of the fact that I didn't know where to sign up, or if people were >needed at all, or if I was important enough to be named an event worker. In my opinion, this is not a valid excuse, unless the organizers really did screw up. I haven't been at any event where there hasn't been an announcement on the PA system asking for help. If you walk up to the event tent and ask, you will certainly be pointed in the right direction to help. If the event organizers ignored you or pushed you away, then it's not your fault. You tried. Nothing more can be expected from you. >One example we have (had--I think the event's expanding this year) here >in San Francisco is Craig Wong's Golden Gate Challenge. I thought that the >event was a marvel of frugality. It didn't have a Master's class (which made >it so he had a plethora of free judges around), it was one (well-timed) day, >the food was burgers-on-the-beach, etc. The entry fees were only about $10 >(I think that included lunch). This event was pulled-off perfectly (good job >Craig). Yes, this is a great idea. Events of this kind are being held all over. This is how the sport will grow. And Craig could depend on, and did depend on lots of volunteer help. The masters class flyers were just "hanging around". Great! >I don't think that Craig is going to get "burt out" anytime soon: >he paced himself and kept his event to a managible size. You might be >real enthusiastic about volunteering your own time and effort--but burning >out is not a good way to spend your time--for you, or the competitors. As >event organizer, burning out a group of volunteers won't do anybody much >good, either. If you want to do a really "big" event, you'd better get >good at money management and money making. If you don't want to deal with >that, keep your event small... No, the solution is not to get better at money management (it's a problem that should be faced anyway). The solution is to get more volunteers. More volunteers means that you don't burn out the ones that you have. If every Experienced and Masters class flyer volunteered their time, then things would go much easier. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 11:32:33 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers There are a number of ways sport kite competitors can help without infringing on their "event focus." If a competitor is from out-of-town, let the event coordinator know when you'll arrive and how much time you'll have Friday night to help out (set up fields, stuff packets -- maybe these things aren't done Friday night elsewhere, but in Berkeley, the volunteers can be up late finishing things like this friday night). Maybe you can arrive at the field at little early Saturday morning and put up barriers, signs, etc. Does anything have to be taken down Saturday night and re-installed Sunday morning? At the end of the competition there's clean-up, of trash, barriers, etc. After working as a volunteer from early morning to end-of-the-competition, seeing the sport kite competitors stroll off the field while the volunteers spend several more hours cleaning up has not endeared sport kite competitors to me (now, don't flame, some do help; and let's not go 'round about the fees the competitors pay and how there wouldn't be a competition if the competitors weren't there, cuz that might be ok with me :-). If you live in the area where an event will be held, you can get involved as a volunteer in the weeks/months preceding the event. Anne rock@netcom.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 06:00:39 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jun18.160039.19294@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers In article , steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: ...officiating in baseball deleted... >I've seen some events charge a smaller entry fees for Novice class flyers. >Perhaps it might be wise to charge different fees for the different classes-- >the higher the class, the more the cost. In turn, you can judge the Novice >classes more "casually" (perhaps without the full compliment of line-judges >and judges), and really give the Master's class teams and individuals the >proffesional treatment. Actually, the reverse is the case. You need all of those people for Novice class flyers, except you can usually get by with just 3 judges. The Novice needs the field director to tell him/her what to do. The pit boss needs to keep track of novices since they don't the routine well enough to do the right thing. Line judges are there largely for safety purposes and Novices need the most watching there. Everyone who competes deserves to be treated equally. The Novice is no less serious than the Master and shouldn't be treated differently. > ... Master's class flyers in particular are now a days >often sponsored by some for-profit company, anyhow--I'm sure they'd be >willing to pay extra to be given the extra attention required. This is the case for some, not many, and certainly not most, flyers. Most flyers pay their own way. There are only a handful of kite companies that can afford to sponsor people or teams in a big way. With the current divisions one has to be careful about making the prices too high. If you have to be a sponsored flyer to be competitive, then kiting has made it impossible for most flyers to compete. I think that this is reasonable to do in the future, when there is more money, but right now there are too few events to do this. >Also--and I think this is already happening--event organizers need to get >to be better money-makers (for the BIG events that is--Regionals are probably >a different story). In the big events, there's a lot that could be made >selling "advertising space" and retail licenses, etc. This is really hard to do. Even the BIG events have a tough time. There were rumors that the World Cup wouldn't be held this year, a big sponsor pulled out. Because of skillful negotiating another sponsor was found. The numbers can be daunting even for the big events. Let's assume that you are running two competition fields, and that you alternate judging staff, so judges work every other slot. That's 20 judges. And let's say that it costs $1000 a judge, that's $20,000. >Also, events could offer discounts to participants who work the event--which >would encourage more people to "volunteer" their time--particularly to do >rather boring tasks such as line judging. This often happens. At least you get lunch... >When I go to a competition, I usually applaud loudly at the event workers >when they are introduced at dinner. Even still, I always feel a touch of >guilt becuase I know that I'm so concentrated (etc., I'll explain below) >on my own flying that I could not be one of them. And you should feel guilty. You should work, if you can. If you can't, then that's fine. I think that Darrin's restriction of not judging just before performing is very reasonable. You should also have time to eat, take care of biological things, etc. >Let me give an example of another problem, that I just eluded to above. >Personally, I've only worked at a few events. This was not out of laziness, >but out of the fact that I didn't know where to sign up, or if people were >needed at all, or if I was important enough to be named an event worker. In my opinion, this is not a valid excuse, unless the organizers really did screw up. I haven't been at any event where there hasn't been an announcement on the PA system asking for help. If you walk up to the event tent and ask, you will certainly be pointed in the right direction to help. If the event organizers ignored you or pushed you away, then it's not your fault. You tried. Nothing more can be expected from you. >One example we have (had--I think the event's expanding this year) here >in San Francisco is Craig Wong's Golden Gate Challenge. I thought that the >event was a marvel of frugality. It didn't have a Master's class (which made >it so he had a plethora of free judges around), it was one (well-timed) day, >the food was burgers-on-the-beach, etc. The entry fees were only about $10 >(I think that included lunch). This event was pulled-off perfectly (good job >Craig). Yes, this is a great idea. Events of this kind are being held all over. This is how the sport will grow. And Craig could depend on, and did depend on lots of volunteer help. The masters class flyers were just "hanging around". Great! >I don't think that Craig is going to get "burt out" anytime soon: >he paced himself and kept his event to a managible size. You might be >real enthusiastic about volunteering your own time and effort--but burning >out is not a good way to spend your time--for you, or the competitors. As >event organizer, burning out a group of volunteers won't do anybody much >good, either. If you want to do a really "big" event, you'd better get >good at money management and money making. If you don't want to deal with >that, keep your event small... No, the solution is not to get better at money management (it's a problem that should be faced anyway). The solution is to get more volunteers. More volunteers means that you don't burn out the ones that you have. If every Experienced and Masters class flyer volunteered their time, then things would go much easier. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 12:19:25 -1000 From: @vines.colostate.edu,@dce:kyoder@admin (Ken Yoder) Message-Id: Organization: Colorado State University Subject: Re: Judging Problem #1, it's a matter of numbers In article <1993Jun17.185446.9621@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: >My conclusion: If you are an experienced competitor, and you don't >volunteer to judge or otherwise help at a competition, you are hurting >the future of competitive stunt kiting. People like me, who pay their >own way to events, pay a registration fee to compete, pay for lodging, >and end up working, are going to get burned out eventually if they >don't get some help soon. I agree! I think the least an event could do would be to wave registration fees, pay for lodging (someone's home?), and supply food for judges. I was trying to put on a competition in Colorado before the funding dropped out due to budget cuts. We found that local resturants were willing to donate free meals to judges as part of their contribution (with appropriate publicity) and local volunteers were very happy to take judges into their homes and give them lodging and some home-cooked meals (the "fee" would be some major ear-bending of course ;) ). I think creativity is the main thing called for here. That and judging workshops at EVERY event so those who are interested can get some pointers. Competitions don't work very well without judges... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =