Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 15:07:09 -1000 From: lord@eskimo.com (David Lord) Message-Id: Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Subject: Force 10 Bridle lines I just completed re-bridleing my 6.6 meter F10 buggy engine. I tried it out this last weekend at the beach in Westport Washington. I really like the improvement. I gained close to 1 mph on the lower wind limit for beach buggying. I used 125 lb zip line so I could tie knots with out sleeving. The diameter is much less than the *rope* used by the manufacturer. It took three 125 ft rolls of the zip line, so the drag reduction is quite significant.( drag increases as the square of the line diameter). In addition the kite is easier to turn and more responsive to control. And since the lift to drag ratio is now better the kite is faster and provides more pull at every wind speed. I highly recommend re-bridleing it is easy and offers significant improvement.BTW the primary bridle lines could probably be made from 80 lb zip line, thats what I would have used if it had been available at the time. I think this could offer the same type of improvement for the 4.4 meter F10 as well. On kites as large as the 6.6 meter the tolerances on bridle lengths are not very great, but on the smaller versions one must be more careful. Dave Lord = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 07:08:50 -1000 From: pbc@condor.circa.ufl.edu (Philip B. Chase) Message-Id: Organization: CIRCA, University of Florida Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines In article lord@eskimo.com (David Lord) writes: >From: lord@eskimo.com (David Lord) >Subject: Force 10 Bridle lines >Keywords: drag >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 01:07:09 GMT >I just completed re-bridleing my 6.6 meter F10 buggy engine. I tried it >out this last weekend at the beach in Westport Washington. I really like >the improvement. I rebridled my F10 4.4 for the second time. I cross bridled it using 50 lb and 80 lb dacron. It turns much faster than previous, but I can't comment on changes in wind range. I apologize to all of you who I told I would publish this. I second rebridle is nicer than the first and needs only one small adjustment from the design. If I can express the dimensions in some reasonable fashion, I *will* post it here and place it (probably with better graphics) on the power kiting page. David, Did you use the same dimensions on your replacemnt bridle lines? Philip Philip Chase * pbc@ufl.edu * 904-392-2007 * FAX: 904-392-3760 * U Florida Restructured, easier to read >> http://grove.ufl.edu/~pbc << NetWare help = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:43:41 -1000 From: mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <783834221snx@murder.demon.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines In article lord@eskimo.com (David Lord) writes: > I just completed re-bridleing my 6.6 meter F10 buggy engine. I tried it > out this last weekend at the beach in Westport Washington. I really like > the improvement. I gained close to 1 mph on the lower wind limit for > beach buggying. I used 125 lb zip line so I could tie knots with out > sleeving. The diameter is much less than the *rope* used by the > manufacturer. It took three 125 ft rolls of the zip line, Whats 'zip line' ? -- Mark de Roussier ************************************ A nice man is a man of nasty ideas. Jonathon Swift. ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 22:35:42 -1000 From: lord@eskimo.com (David Lord) Message-Id: Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines Phillip I did not change the dimensions or the bridling scheme. Since the 6.6 meter bag is what I use for low wind I wanted to keep the bridle lines to a minimum. Cross bridling, while it may help turning will add drag and on your lowest wind bag you need to get the drag as low as possible. For the bags you use for everything but the bottom of the wind range,sacrificing some drag for better handling makes sense. I am going to look at the secondary bridle lengths to see if they can be shortened a bit. I intend to also try sewing flaps to the trailing edge and attaching the rear row of bridles to them like the Skytiger configuration. I think you can pick up a bit of extra lift and reduce drag a bit by using the flaps for control instead of distorting the airfoil along the rear 1/4 of the canopy. I like my Skytiger 26 in turns since the canopy distorts very little and it seems to retain power during turns better than other designs. Dave Lord = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 16:33:20 -1000 From: windwiz@coyote.rain.org (Dan Rubesh) Message-Id: <39eqtg$l14@coyote.rain.org> Organization: Regional Access Information Network (RAIN) Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines In article <783834221snx@murder.demon.co.uk> mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) writes: > >In article lord@eskimo.com (David Lord) writes: >> I just completed re-bridleing my 6.6 meter F10 buggy engine. I tried it >> out this last weekend at the beach in Westport Washington. I really like >> the improvement. I gained close to 1 mph on the lower wind limit for >> beach buggying. I used 125 lb zip line so I could tie knots with out >> sleeving. The diameter is much less than the *rope* used by the >> manufacturer. It took three 125 ft rolls of the zip line, > >Whats 'zip line' ? > >-- >Mark de Roussier Zip line is a blend of Spectra/Dacron that Shanti kites is handling.. I _think_ it's 25 0acron / 75Spectra, and is somewhat less costly than 100pectra, and not nearly as stretchy as straight dacron.. It can also be knotted without sleeving.. (deference to Jtavo, who knots Spectra sans sleeving).. Ob. Disclaimer: I am a stunt kite dealer and carry some of the above mentioned product(s). As such, my opinions may tend to be somewhat subjective. -- Tako Buggy Naked Kichi!! Dan Rubesh AKA Member/Merchant Wind Wizard, Purveyor of windwiz@coyote.rain.org GO Stunt Kites & Accessories danr@crash.cts.com FLY A P.O. Box 5747 (805) 659-5654 (voice) STUNT Ventura, CA 93005 (805) 659-5769 (fax) KITE! Member: Kite Trade Assn. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 12:44:48 -1000 From: Charlie.Charlton@ind3x.dircon.co.uk (Charlie Charlton) Message-Id: <9e5_9411062314@ind3x.dircon.co.uk> Organization: ind3x Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines -=> Quoting Dan Rubesh to All <=- DR> From: windwiz@coyote.rain.org (Dan Rubesh) DR> Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines DR> Organization: Regional Access Information Network (RAIN) DR> In article <783834221snx@murder.demon.co.uk> mark@murder.demon.co.uk DR> (Mark de Roussier) writes: > >Whats 'zip line' ? > DR> Zip line is a blend of Spectra/Dacron that Shanti kites is handling.. DR> I _think_ it's 25 0acron / 75Spectra, and is somewhat less costly DR> than 100pectra, and not nearly as stretchy as straight dacron.. It DR> can also be knotted without sleeving.. This sounds very promising But..... can you buy this stuff in the UK ? and how does it react when in contact with other lines. ie does it melt very easily like spectra? Charlie Charlton charlie.charlton@ind3x.dircon.co.uk ... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1994 +-----------------------------------------------------------+ | ind3x.dircon.co.uk in Nottingham, England /_ _|_ | | // || |_|\/ | | "...Slave to the hormone, body and soul..." // ||_|_|/\ | +-----------------------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:38:26 -1000 From: windwiz@coyote.rain.org (Dan Rubesh) Message-Id: <39pn8i$eb0@coyote.rain.org> Organization: Regional Access Information Network (RAIN) Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines In article <9e5_9411062314@ind3x.dircon.co.uk> Charlie.Charlton@ind3x.dircon.co.uk (Charlie Charlton) writes: (in reference to Zip line) > This sounds very promising > But..... can you buy this stuff in the UK ? > and how does it react when in contact with other lines. ie does it melt > very easily like spectra? > > Charlie Charlton I called Janet at Shanti Kites this morning and got some UK sources for Zip line.. Air Born Kites 97 Trafalgar Street Brighton Sussex BN1 4ER Tel:0273 676740 The Kite Store Neal Street 48 Covent Garden London WC2H 9PA Tel:071 836 1666 Fax:071 836 2510 The Kite & Ballon Company 613 Garrett Lane Lonfon SW18 4SU Tel:081 946 5962 I haven't done any testing on reaction with other lines, but I don't _think_ it would be quite as heat sensitive as 100Spectra.. Ob. Disclaimer: I am a stunt kite dealer and carry some of the above mentioned product(s). As such, my opinions may tend to be somewhat subjective. -- Tako Buggy Naked Kichi!! Dan Rubesh AKA Member/Merchant Wind Wizard, Purveyor of windwiz@coyote.rain.org GO Stunt Kites & Accessories danr@crash.cts.com FLY A P.O. Box 5747 (805) 659-5654 (voice) STUNT Ventura, CA 93005 (805) 659-5769 (fax) KITE! Member: Kite Trade Assn. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 12:49:45 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines pbc@condor.circa.ufl.edu (Philip B. Chase) writes: >I rebridled my F10 4.4 for the second time. Some random thoughts on bridling... The length of the bridle line isn't particulatly important. What is important is the *difference* in the lengths of the bridle lines. Rather than trying to measure the lines themselves, tie the bridle attatchment to something, pull two lines together and compare the difference in their length at the skin. My Peel has just under 100 primary bridle lines, I fly on a maximum of 400lb Spectra, so with 2 lines, and an extreem curcumstance, I might be able to put 800lb of strain on the bridle. If this is evenly distributed, then this would equate to merely 8lb of pull on each line. The Primary bridle is, however contructed from 80lb line... I guess that reasons for this include: Sleeving. Anyone fancy sleeving 200 ends? Failure mode: If a bridle fails due to damage, you want the remaining bridles to support the load without failing themselves. It would be distressing (but not unheardof) to see every bridle fail simultaneously. Physical abuse: The bridles need to be able to withstand being pulled out of trees (eh oxo?), dragged through sand and surf or worst of all, snagged on the small sharp edges present in most concrete or black-top surfaces. Tangle abuse: When a tip gets caught in a bridle, the drag of half a collapsed canopy can be transferred to one line... and then the guy starts shakinging it! Andrew -- You can FTP the kite FAQ's from ftp.hawaii.edu (directory /pub/rec/kites/faq) /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ For sale: 10' Flexis with std & UF Spars, 10m Peel (I want the new reefers) What should I know? I can't even axel yet :-( = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 13:30:21 -1000 From: dquad@aol.com (DQuad) Message-Id: <39rm2d$2h6@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines In article <39pn8i$eb0@coyote.rain.org>, windwiz@coyote.rain.org (Dan Rubesh) writes: In response to "zip line" Sounds like the stuff that U.S. Line manufactures or used to manufacture.. For a while they called it - Spectron. Pretty neat stuff for bridle lines and train lines. Have sleeved it where there is some type of friction with itself , spar, etc. It will tend to cut itself because of the mixture of dacron and spectra.Smaller diameter than equivalent rating of dacron. Looks cool too!! This is what I have found in using it. Anyone else with history on this stuff? dave arnold - dquad ..................watchin' for lightpoles and more supplies@@@@@@@@ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 00:30:29 -1000 From: steveh@pyramid.com (Steve Hammatt) Message-Id: <1994Nov10.103029.15071@pyra.co.uk> Organization: Pyramid Technology Ltd. Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines Charlie Charlton (Charlie.Charlton@ind3x.dircon.co.uk) wrote: > DR> Zip line is a blend of Spectra/Dacron that Shanti kites is handling.. > DR> I _think_ it's 25 0acron / 75Spectra, and is somewhat less costly > DR> than 100pectra, and not nearly as stretchy as straight dacron.. It > DR> can also be knotted without sleeving.. > > This sounds very promising > But..... can you buy this stuff in the UK ? > and how does it react when in contact with other lines. ie does it melt > very easily like spectra? I don't know about contact with other lines, but you can buy Zip in the UK. Check out The Kite Store of Covent Garden (071 836 1666). Their prices for Zip line are about half those for Spectra. Steve. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:36:33 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <3a8l91$923@necco.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard OIT Network Services Subject: Re: Force 10 Bridle lines Spectron was manufactured by U.S. Line, I don't know whether they make it anymore or not. It was/is a mixture of nylon and spectra. I tried it and generally didn't like it. The problems that I experienced were due to the difference in stretch between the nylon and the spectra. Hard sharp tugs on the line sometimes would break the spectra before breaking the nylon. The nylon would break after the spectra would break. The result would be failure far short of the rated line strength. I also found Spectron to get "fuzzy", sort of frayed all over, very quickly. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =