Subject: Re: bridles Message-ID: <1992Oct28.164014.28224@netcom.com> From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1992 16:40:14 GMT Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA In article <1992Oct27.220209.1930@news.media.mit.edu> cwren@media.mit.edu (Christopher Wren) writes: > >My girlfriend bought me a set of Trilbies a while back and we've had a >lot of fun flying them around the east coast. I have two questions: > >The first is easy - how do you keep all your bridles from >getting tangled when you store them? It's always a bit of >disappointment to rush out to fly the kites and have to spend a good >bit of time trying to get the bridles all disentangled to fly... what >methods have worked best for you? > I used to fly Trlbies every day in the kite show at Pier-39 San Francisco, and all I did was untangle them every morning... not very scientific, but it worked.... >The second is that I'm thinking of buying her a set of kites for Xmas >and I saw a set of three Skynasaurs in Into the Wind. The Faq >mentioned a high end kite made by Skynasuar, but I don't see >anything about the low end (like the ones in the Into the Wind set - >don't remember the names right now... F49 or something like that...). >Any warnings? Recommendations? Do those kites need tails - or are they >just for the spectacle? > I'd strongly recommend getting her another stack of Trlbies like your own. Trlbies are hard to beat as far as flying goes (in that class of kite, anyhow). They're also the least expensive which is very misleading since they fly so much better than other stacking kites that cost much more. Also, more importantly, with matched kites, you and your girlfriend can Teamfly, which will insure a lasting relationship :-). I realize it's kind of odd getting someone something they just gave you, but mabey you can suplement the gift with something else, given the money you'll save... _______ Steve Thomas steveth@rossinc.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 03:51:00 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: Organization: Harvard University OIT/NSD Subject: bridles The bug is still alive.... ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: jgrav@mav.com (Jim Graverholt) Subject: bridles Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 08:56:02 -0700 (PDT) To those who have been kiting for some time, this may be a stupid question, but being new to the sport (2 years), I am puzzled by the way some kites are bridled. I just purchased four cutters from a local kite shop. I hurriedly, rigged them in a stack and was impressed by their flying. One thing I noticed, though, was the bridle line running from the flyline to the center spar. They were both loose. I landed the kites and was going to adjust the bridle. This commercial bridle has the top line and the line to the center as one and the line to the lower attachment point separate. Now it seems to me if I wanted to adjust the angle of the kite, I would want to adjust the line from the top to the lower point. I would think I would leave the line to the center alone unless I wanted to change the distance I wanted to move the handles to turn the kite. (The closer to the center, the less movement required.) Are most commercial bridles made this way? Is my reasoning all wrong? I **did** take the bridle apart on one of the kites and put it together, rigging from top to bottom with the center line separate. The kite seemed much easier to tune and was much more responsive. I didn't need to untie any knots either, I just moved the larks head up or down the line. Also, I rigged the stack with five lines to each kite. I made the lines in advance and set it up for the first time at the field. The center lines had to be adjusted for length because they went around a larger piece of rubber tubing. I just guessed their length by setting up the kites in the wind and checking tension on all lines. The kites flew pretty well, although the top kite (#4) wiggled back and forth a little bit. I've seen that in videos so I'm not too worried, but I will try to adjust the tensions better to perhaps eliminate it. Steady breezes, Jim Graverholt, Jgrav@mav.com -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 17:36:15 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <2utejf$nj1@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: bridles In article sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: >From: jgrav@mav.com (Jim Graverholt) >Subject: bridles >I just purchased four cutters from a local kite shop. I hurriedly, >rigged them in a stack and was impressed by their flying. One thing >I noticed, though, was the bridle line running from the flyline to >the center spar. They were both loose. This confuses me when you say that both lines were loose. Typically, when a delta is flying straight, all of the bridle lines will be taut. When you turn, a line will become slack, but that's to be expected. Think about it...when you pull on the left line, the left wing comes toward you and the right wing drops back. The point where the line is attached to the right bridle will move toward the spine of the kite and that line to the t-fitting will become slack. >This commercial bridle has the top line and the line to the center as one >and the line to the lower attachment point separate. This is a standard arrangement. I've never heard much of a consensus for the name of the line running from the upper spreader to the t-fitting, but I usually call it the main bridle line or the dynamic line, so it's top and bottom lengths can change through adjustments. The line to the bottom spreader (leading edge) is called an "outhaul" or sometimes a static line since its length typically doesn't change. Some kites are sold or designed with an adjustable outhaul, but it's not really common. The Phantom was the first kite I ever saw that had an "in-haul", that is the dynamic line ran from the top to bottom spreader along the leading edge. This is not a common bridle arrangement, though you do see it around. The problem with either of these bridle styles is that when you move the pick point up or down the main bridle, you move it horizontally as well as vertically. The infinity bridle, designed by Ray Bordelon of Big Easy kites, has designed a bridle that is adjustable in two directions, which gives you a lot more control over the adjustment of the kite. >The kites flew pretty well, although the top kite (#4) wiggled back and forth >a little bit. Try dropping the nose on the last kite back by a little bit. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "Everything is still with a fear of never coming out | |Suffering Bad Grammar| Never following through / Never ever finishing | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | What we wanted to do." -- Melissa Ferrick | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 08:20:13 -1000 From: dshriver@ram.ramnet.net (Dave Shriver) Message-Id: <3gjakt$684@ram.ramnet.net> Organization: RAM Technologies Subject: bridles Hello, I have been making my own spectra kite bridles for some time now. I have had a fair amount of success either copying the existing bridle or scaling up the whole bridle. However, I have never tied changing the length of the outside bridle line (the one that connects to the bottom speader at the LE.) So what is the effect of changing the outhaul line? Thanks Dave Shriver = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:38:10 -1000 From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com (Bert Tanaka) Message-Id: <9502012037.AA19679@mts-gw.pa.dec.com> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Bridles "dshriver@ramnet.net" writes: / I have been making my own spectra kite bridles for some time now. I have /had a fair amount of success either copying the existing bridle or scaling /up the whole bridle. However, I have never tied changing the length of the /outside bridle line (the one that connects to the bottom speader at the LE.) /So what is the effect of changing the outhaul line? /Thanks /Dave Shriver For a stunt kite with a conventional bridle set up, some fine tuning can be done by varying the length of the outhaul. My TOL North Shore Radical has an adjustable outhaul system that produces the following effects. Generally, long outhaul lengths seem to slightly increase forward drive, make the kite easier to spin, makes the kite turn with less speed but able to keep the spine and wingtips of the kite, relatively perpendicular to the lines, and may slightly increase performance in low wind. Shorter outhaul lengths usually will produce a quicker and more accurate turn, but one in which the kite has a tendency to "lay back" more while turning, a faster recovery from snap turns, slightly less forward drive, and a slower spin. The differences are subtle and there is an interaction with the bridle adjustment. I prefer the NSR with the outhauls on the short side. In low wind, I will lengthen the outhaul 4-5 inches to increase forward drive and have found that with this kite, this also has the side benefit of increasing the normal turning radius much less than the effect that simply raising the bridle adjustment produces. Good Winds, Bert = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:30:02 -1000 From: sasaki@netope.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <3grfca$o97@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard OIT Network Services Subject: Re: bridles In article <3gjakt$684@ram.ramnet.net>, dshriver@mail.ramnet.net (Dave Shriver) writes: |> I have been making my own spectra kite bridles for some time now. I have |>had a fair amount of success either copying the existing bridle or scaling |>up the whole bridle. However, I have never tied changing the length of the |>outside bridle line (the one that connects to the bottom speader at the LE.) |> |>So what is the effect of changing the outhaul line? The effects are different for different kites, so the best thing to do is to experiment. Remember that there is a correlation between shortening the outhaul bridle and moving the bridle point along the long bridle line. In order to get the same forward speed when shortening the outhaul, you will need to move the bridle point up on the long bridle. On the Katana, the ratio is around 4 to one, if you shorten the outhaul by 24mm, you should move the center up about 6mm. With the Katanas, shortening the outhaul (and moving the bridle points up) will increase the speed of the turn. The kites also become easier to snap stall, and because of this, they are easier to axel as well. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 05:10:52 -1000 From: dart@euronet.nl (Henk van Dijke) Message-Id: Organization: Dart Design Subject: Bridles > -- > Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications > sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street > 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 > Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 Dear Marty, I understand that you have written a very good article about bridle settings. Unhappily, I have missed it. Could you e-mail it to me, as I seem to be having a spot of trouble there... Thanx, Henk van dijke = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 07:22:02 -1000 From: nordic@inetnebr.com (Dave) Message-Id: Organization: Nordic Software Subject: Bridles Hello All, Is there a rule-of-thumb for calculating the length of bridles for a kite. I have been playing around with a simple 2-line delta that I built and am having trouble getting the bridles setup right The kites shape is similar to a Skynasuar Aerobat. It has a medium aspect ratio and a long keel. I got it to fly and it is very stable, but it hardly turns. On 75 feet of line it is about all I can do to complete one loop without hitting the ground. Also near the edges of the window it is very easy to pull out of the sky. The leading edge pulls too far in and it flutters to the ground, even in a stiff breeze. I know that there are a lot of factors; including my construction technique, the shape of the kite, etc.. I feel that it flys well enough now that with some bridle adjustments it will fly even better. What do people think of the TOTL Sprint? I was given one and have been having loads of fun flying it. I was wondering about the kind of tricks that I should be able to perform... thanks Dave = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:13:58 -1000 From: jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com (Campbell, James E) Message-Id: Organization: HAC Subject: Re: Bridles In article , nordic@inetnebr.com (Dave) wrote: > Hello All, > Is there a rule-of-thumb for calculating the length of bridles for a > kite. Tuning a "home-built" stunter can be a fun challenge. Here's a few things to check out: 1) The turning radius can be impacted by the attack angle of the kite. If the nose is pulled in too far, the kite will fall out at the edges, and will also have a large turning radius. Try moving the tow point down (away >From the nose) a bit. In fact, I'd lower it until the kite will no longer lift off of the ground and then move it up in small increments. Checking the performance at each setting. Select the setting which best suits the kite and your flying style (and wind conditions). 2) The length of the outhaul line (the line from the tow point to the bottom wing spreader) also impacts the turning attributes of a kite. Generally speaking, a shorter outhaul line causes the kite to turn more quickly and the radius of the turn is decreased. When carried to extremes, it can cause some oversteer. Be mindful of the fact that changing the outhaul length can also impact the attack angle of the kite. Shortening the outhaul tends to cause the kite to lean back a little more but the adjustment is not nearly as sensitive as the tow point adjustment. The ratio of outhaul adjustment to tow point adjustment is about 3 to 1. That is to say if you shorten the outhaul by one inch, then you need to move the tow point up 1/3 inch to maintain a similar attack angle. (The ratio is not set in stone and can vary between different designs.) I don't know of any "magic" rule of thumb to predetermine the exact way to tune a kite given the tremendous number of variables involved. There have been numerous articles written on this subject and even the "experts" tend to disagree. I agree with Marty Sesaki in that the best way to tune a kite is to take some bridle line to the field and start experimenting. Part of the fun of building is in the experimentation. It's also a great way to learn the relationship between bridle adjustments and performance. Home this helps. -- James E. Campbell (jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com) Hughes Aircraft Company Leading Edge Kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 21:21:51 -1000 From: Rodger Duffett Message-Id: <48rumf$rso@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> Organization: UCT Subject: Re: Bridles Hi there, Sounds like your kite is set too high - That is the tow point is too near the nose of the kite. Try moving the tow point toward the tail in small increments taking care that you retain symmetry. A good starting point for a typical stunt kite can be found be aligning the tow point on each side with the centre (in the side to side sense) of the "valley" made by the sail and such that the kite frame would make an angle of roughly 5 degrees nose down when suspended from your favourite chandeliers. Ron Reich once suggested to me to suspend the kite from a ceiling and find what he called "the centre of pressure" by allowing a marble to roll down the sail. Adjust things so that the tow point is above the position of equilibrium of the marble to find the _starting_ point for your bridle settings. Marty Sasaki has also posted a comprehensive article on bridle settings - look in the archives in the potpourri sub dir for the bridling threads. Anyone know the exact subject? It would take too long from down here to look at each of the bridling threads but maybe someone up north could post the subject... Cheerio -- __________________________________________________________________ Rodger Duffett Internet Address: rodger@ray.uct.ac.za Dept. Radiation Oncology Telephone : +2721 404 3135 Radiobiology Section University of Cape Town Groote Schuur Hospital South Africa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 21:17:54 -1000 From: Rodger Duffett Message-Id: <48ruf2$rso@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> Organization: UCT Subject: Re: Bridles Hi there, Sounds like your kite is set too high - That is the tow point is too near the nose of the kite. Try moving the tow point toward the tail in small increments taking care that you retain symmetry. A good starting point for a typical stunt kite can be found be aligning the tow point on each side with the centre (in the side to side sense) of the "valley" made by the sail and such that the kite frame would make an angle of roughly 5 degrees nose down when suspended from your favourite chandeliers. Ron Reich once suggested to me to suspend the kite from a ceiling and find what he called "the centre of pressure" by allowing a marble to roll down the sail. Adjust things so that the tow point is above the position of equilibrium of the marble to find the _starting_ point for your bridle settings. Marty Sasaki has also posted a comprehensive article on bridle settings - look in the archives in the potpourri sub dir for the bridling threads. Anyone know the exact subject? It would take too long from down here to look at each of the bridling threads but maybe someone up north could post the subject... Cheerio -- __________________________________________________________________ Rodger Duffett Internet Address: rodger@ray.uct.ac.za Dept. Radiation Oncology Telephone : +2721 404 3135 Radiobiology Section University of Cape Town Groote Schuur Hospital South Africa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 04:39:14 -1000 From: pdjnjvt@hacom.nl (Peter de jong) Message-Id: Organization: HACOM Internet - Amersfoort - The Netherlands. (033-4808707) Subject: Re: Bridles nordic@inetnebr.com (Dave) wrote: >Hello All, > Is there a rule-of-thumb for calculating the length of bridles for a >kite. I have been playing around with a simple 2-line delta that I built >and am having trouble getting the bridles setup right The kites shape is >similar to a Skynasuar Aerobat. It has a medium aspect ratio and a long >keel. > I got it to fly and it is very stable, but it hardly turns. On 75 feet >of line it is about all I can do to complete one loop without hitting the >ground. Also near the edges of the window it is very easy to pull out of >the sky. The leading edge pulls too far in and it flutters to the ground, >even in a stiff breeze. > > I know that there are a lot of factors; including my construction >technique, the shape of the kite, etc.. I feel that it flys well enough >now that with some bridle adjustments it will fly even better. >thanks >Dave I've tried to describe my way of making a bridle ( for non-trick delta's ) but that didn't work out so I made a pic. If you ( or someone else ) wants it drop me a line. It works for most kites, adds speed and pull, and it turns faster than with the "normal" bridle. No guarantees , but worth a try. Greetings from Holland Peter de Jong A&F Custom Kites Werkhoven NL - and yes, I still wear wooden shoes most of the time - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 04:00:32 -1000 From: John Ruggiero Message-Id: <48vae0$7pi@mail.techg.com> Organization: TechGnosis Subject: Re: Bridles Richard Synergy's book "Stunt Kite Basics: Making All the Right Moves" contains a good chapter on bridles with instructions on how to contruct an experimental bridle. Basically, you make a bridle with knotted loops at every attachment point. This allows you to vary any aspect of the bridle. Give it a try. - John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - John Ruggiero jruggiero@techg.com - - TechGnosis, Inc. - - Voice: 617-229-6100 Fax: 617-229-0557 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 09:37:23 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <48vu5j$iok@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: Bridles Dave (nordic@inetnebr.com) wrote: > Is there a rule-of-thumb for calculating the length of bridles for a > kite. I have been playing around with a simple 2-line delta that I built > and am having trouble getting the bridles setup right The kites shape is > similar to a Skynasuar Aerobat. It has a medium aspect ratio and a long > keel. Sorry no rule of thumb, just trail and error. Some general rules. Shorter bridles (i.e. closer to sail): More responsive. More stress on frame. Greater sensativity to moving the clip. Longer bridles Less responsive. Better tracking. Less stress on the frame. Less sensative to moving the clip. Out Haul adjustments. Shorter equals tighter turns. Longer equals wider turns. From experience, I have found that if you adjust the bridle so that the pick point is about 18-24" above the kite and posistioned about at 6" in from the leading edge (these measurments are for a 8' kite), the kite will fly ok the first time out. > I got it to fly and it is very stable, but it hardly turns. On 75 feet > of line it is about all I can do to complete one loop without hitting the > ground. Also near the edges of the window it is very easy to pull out of > the sky. The leading edge pulls too far in and it flutters to the ground, > even in a stiff breeze. I have had the same problem with all the Aerobat type kites I have tried. The only one that seems to work is the Dyna Kite. Most of them do not want to turn and require large arm movements to get any response. They also tend to full out of the sky easy with large arm movements. > I know that there are a lot of factors; including my construction > technique, the shape of the kite, etc.. I feel that it flys well enough > now that with some bridle adjustments it will fly even better. Try shortening the out-hauls, this should decrease the turn radius. > What do people think of the TOTL Sprint? I was given one and have been > having loads of fun flying it. I was wondering about the kind of tricks > that I should be able to perform... You should be able to preform almost all the tricks discussed here in r.k. It is just that some kites are easier to learn on than others. I found that I had a lot of trouble learning to stall my Razor Wing 60 (old Fiberglass one), I didn't think it could even stall. Then I got a full sized kite (ZR1) and learned how to stall. Now I can stall almost any kite. It is easier to learn the tricks on a good well balenced 8' kite, but most kites will do most tricks. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 02:36:41 -1000 From: pdjnjvt@hacom.nl (Peter de jong) Message-Id: Organization: HACOM Internet - Amersfoort - The Netherlands. (033-4808707) Subject: Re: Bridles nordic@inetnebr.com (Dave) wrote: >Hello All, > Is there a rule-of-thumb for calculating the length of bridles for a >kite. I have been playing around with a simple 2-line delta that I built >and am having trouble getting the bridles setup right The kites shape is >similar to a Skynasuar Aerobat. It has a medium aspect ratio and a long >keel. > I got it to fly and it is very stable, but it hardly turns. On 75 feet >of line it is about all I can do to complete one loop without hitting the >ground. Also near the edges of the window it is very easy to pull out of >the sky. The leading edge pulls too far in and it flutters to the ground, >even in a stiff breeze. > > I know that there are a lot of factors; including my construction >technique, the shape of the kite, etc.. I feel that it flys well enough >now that with some bridle adjustments it will fly even better. >thanks >Dave I've tried to describe my way of making a bridle ( for non-trick delta's ) but that didn't work out so I made a pic. If you ( or someone else ) wants it drop me a line. It works for most kites, adds speed and pull, and it turns faster than with the "normal" bridle. No guarantees , but worth a try. Greetings from Holland Peter de Jong A&F Custom Kites Werkhoven NL - and yes, I still wear wooden shoes most of the time - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =