Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 17:48:18 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <469qi2$3hm@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: 1-2mph?? Try this at home. Set up two markers, 10 feet apart, in an area that receives no air currents. Practice walking this distance in 6.8 seconds. You just walked 1mph. Practice walking this distance in 3.4 seconds. You just walked 2mph. Unless your very sensitive, you didn't feel anything at 1mph and you MIGHT have felt something at 2mph. I seem to hear about a lot of kites that will fly in 1-2mph. Some of these claims are true (indoor kites), but a lot of them are false. This overrated low wind scale seems to find its way to the kite flying field by people, hearing that the $200 kite that they just bought will fly in 1-2mph. They then think that the low wind that their kite is flying in is 1-2mph, when it is in fact 4-5mph. I myself was guilty of this assumption when I first got involved in kites. I was also wondering why the instructions for the kite indicated 1-2mph. Did this 1-2mph also include a 2-3mph walk? What size and length line did this wind estimate apply to? I feel that newcomers to this sport shouldn't feel disappointed when they buy their first high end kite and try it out in really low winds. That is, assuming that they know what 1-2mph feels like on their face. I'm also tired of taking somebody's low wind estimate with a grain of salt. Steve Bateman bateman@mail.sdsu.edu Flying along. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 08:17:29 -1000 From: djskites@aol.com (Djskites) Message-Id: <46gm7p$pjp@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve Bateman writes>I feel that newcomers to this sport shouldn't feel disappointed when they buy their first high end kite and try it out in really low winds. That is, assuming that they know what 1-2mph feels like on their face. I'm also tired of taking somebody's low wind estimate with a grain of salt. This was always a problem with me when I had my retail store, that is why I always gave two to three windrange estimates fwhen talking to a customer. I didn't have enough space in the catalog to write all of it. One that the manufacturer made up. another that I believed most could fly that paticular kite in, and then what speed a inexperienced flier needed. Your right, the wind ranges have always been very subjective and quite frankly, wrong. The low wind range is hard to come up with because, was the range calculated at the shore with an on shore breeze? Was it done inland with trees behind, so in the future we will see 3 paragraphs of explinations of wind ranges? No, we will still see one figure and we will have to rely on our own experience to figure out if the given range is true or not. The other problem has been the high end of the scale. Do most realize how much wind 20mph is? I think not. 20 is high! One of my kites was rated to 25, but according to my Davis turbo meter, the shaking actually started around 19 or so, so I changed it to 18mph, even though the slight shaking occured, it would fly higher. When reading the ranges given to the kites I deal with, I realized some of those figures were wrong so I tried to assign a true range to them. This is difficult. Right when I decided to give one of the a low range of 5, I received calls telling me how low that person could fly that kite in, so I went back out with my trusty sort of accurate Turbo and found that without backing up I could fly in 3.5 or so. SO that is what I assigned to it even though I could fly in less by moving around. So a rating of 4or 5 (a davis turbo meter is not totally accurate) would scare some buyers off. I don't know how to correct this ongoing old problem of assigning wind ranges, the manufactures just have to try to be more honest about their ratings, but it is difficult to do. If they say 4 instead of 3, some would not buy that product. Hope this helps Dodd Gross North and South America Importer/Wholesaler of HQ & Fizz Sport Kites Master Instructor Flight School World Tour Flight School Instructional Video Series \\\\\\\\\\\\Disclaimer/////////////// Because of my involvement with the above products and services, my views and statements may be seen as biased. I can assure you I am a flier FIRST! Quote of the month "Hay alquien aqui que hable ingles?" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:06:21 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <46h75d$20n@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Djskites (djskites@aol.com) wrote: : Steve Bateman writes>I feel that newcomers to this sport shouldn't feel : disappointed when : they buy their first high end kite and try it out in really low : winds. That is, assuming that they know what 1-2mph feels like on : their face. I'm also tired of taking somebody's low wind estimate : with a grain of salt. A good way to determine the low end of the wind range is to look at sail loading. The lower the sail loading the less wind you need to fly the kite. At about 1oz/sq ft you need abut 5mph+ to get the kite to fly. .8oz/sq ft will get you down to 3mph. .6-.7 oz/sq ft is needed to get below 2mph. Now you need to factor in sail efficency. The more efficent the sail the lower the wind the kite will fly in. My Free Spirit has a sail loading of .9oz/sq ft yet will fly very nice in 3mph (with 150lb line). But above about 18mph things start to bend to much. : This was always a problem with me when I had my retail store, that is why : I always gave two to three windrange estimates fwhen talking to a : customer. I didn't have enough space in the catalog to write all of it. : One that the manufacturer made up. another that I believed most could fly : that paticular kite in, and then what speed a inexperienced flier needed. I think we need to define flying :-), when I rate the low end of my kites I fly it on the recommended wieght line and length. I try not to move too much. I also define flying as been able to execute most precision figures with out having to move too much. With experience and the correct equipment you can fly most kites in any wind. I have flow my Flash Fire in <3 on 80lb lines (rated 4mph). I have flow my Flash Point in 3mph many times (rated 5mph). Flying heavy kites in low wind is a matter of experience. I also use a few formulas that I have developed that take sail area, frame flex and sail loading to give min, usefull, and max wind speed. : Your right, the wind ranges have always been very subjective and quite : true or not. The other problem has been the high end of the scale. Do : most realize how much wind 20mph is? I think not. 20 is high! One of my : kites was rated to 25, but according to my Davis turbo meter, the shaking Yes I do realize what 20mph is.... If a kite will fly at 3mph do not expect it to hold together much above 20mph no matter what it is framed in. Protruded 2300 is good from 3mph to about 18 (20)mph. Skyshark 5p's will handle about 2-20mph. This is without changing the bridle settings by more then 1/4". : I don't know how to correct this ongoing old problem of assigning wind : ranges, the manufactures just have to try to be more honest about their : ratings, but it is difficult to do. If they say 4 instead of 3, some would : not buy that product. The problem is not the manufacture but the custmer, they want to get one kite that will cover the entire wind range. You simply can not design a high preformance kite that will cover 1-30mph. You have to make tradeoffs. If you want a wide wind range, don't expect much at either end. Anyone that advertizes a wind range that is larger than a factor of 10 is probably lieing. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 New Web pages, check out our new products and Fall Sale ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 21:54:11 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <46i633$hh0@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) wrote: > > Djskites (djskites@aol.com) wrote: I don't think Djskites wrote anything here. > : Steve Bateman writes>I feel that newcomers to this sport shouldn't feel > : disappointed when > : they buy their first high end kite and try it out in really low > : winds. That is, assuming that they know what 1-2mph feels like on > : their face. I'm also tired of taking somebody's low wind estimate > : with a grain of salt. > > A good way to determine the low end of the wind range is to look at > sail loading. The lower the sail loading the less wind you need to fly > the kite. At about 1oz/sq ft you need abut 5mph+ to get the kite to > fly. .8oz/sq ft will get you down to 3mph. .6-.7 oz/sq ft is needed to > get below 2mph. Now you need to factor in sail efficency. The more efficent > the sail the lower the wind the kite will fly in. My Free Spirit has a > sail loading of .9oz/sq ft yet will fly very nice in 3mph (with 150lb > line). But above about 18mph things start to bend to much. > But what do these low wind ratings mean? What weight line? What length? IS THIS THE SAME 2MPH YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WALK 10 FEET IN 3.4 SECONDS? > : This was always a problem with me when I had my retail store, that is why > : I always gave two to three windrange estimates fwhen talking to a > : customer. I didn't have enough space in the catalog to write all of it. > : One that the manufacturer made up. another that I believed most could fly > : that paticular kite in, and then what speed a inexperienced flier needed. Most of the good catalogs do not go with the manufactures wind range (Into the Wind, BFK, etc), but a lot of them do. > > > Yes I do realize what 20mph is.... If a kite will fly at 3mph do not > expect it to hold together much above 20mph no matter what it is framed in. > Protruded 2300 is good from 3mph to about 18 (20)mph. Skyshark 5p's will > handle about 2-20mph. This is without changing the bridle settings by more > then 1/4". > Please show me a kite framed in 2300 that flys the whole wind window in 3mph (a true 3mph). > : I don't know how to correct this ongoing old problem of assigning wind > : ranges, the manufactures just have to try to be more honest about their > : ratings, but it is difficult to do. If they say 4 instead of 3, some would > : not buy that product. > And righfully so; thats a 33 423936ncrease in the amount of wind needed. > The problem is not the manufacture but the custmer, they want to get > one kite that will cover the entire wind range. You simply can not design > a high preformance kite that will cover 1-30mph. You have to make tradeoffs. > If you want a wide wind range, don't expect much at either end. Anyone that > advertizes a wind range that is larger than a factor of 10 is probably lieing. > > How can the fact that a kite will not fly in the suggested wind range be the fault of the customer?? We all want the endall-nowind-galewind- precision-radical-kite. If it is not available, then it is not available! The maker of a kite should not tell us that it is. Why should the consumer be responsible for knowing the ins and outs of wind ranges? Shouldn't a customer be able to just buy a kite with the correct wind range given? I think the problem lies with fact that most people think that the lowest wind their skin can feel is 1-2mph. Take the walk test. What did you feel? Steve Bateman bateman@mail.sdsu.edu Flying along. P.S. If possible, don't use colons to seperate your paragraphs as they can be confusing to the reader. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 08:09:14 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <46ja4a$rt@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University - OIT/NSD Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? I'm always hesitant to state the low end for my kites. The performance of a kite in very low wind is very subjective and has a lot to do with the skill of the pilot. I've seen Dave Young, a local kite retailer, and distributor for my kites, do the following. A new flyer comes up to Dave and says that the wind is too light to fly his/her kite, and asks Dave what he has that will fly in really light wind. Dave will then ask if he can watch the flyer try flying his kite. After the flyer fails to get his kite going, Dave will take over flying and show the flyer that his kite will fly in the wind and that it is experience that has made the difference. He then says, yes, I do have a kite that will fly in lighter wind with better performance than your kite, and I would be happy to sell it to you. But you might be better served by saving your money and taking a few kite flying lessons. After a few lessons you might still want a lighter wind kite, but you will better informed. Dave then arranges to give the flyer a lesson (at no charge). I have long maintained that you can't have stunt kite with spars that has a true/useful wind range from 2 to 20, or 3 to 30. You just have to compromise too much, either at the high end, or the low end, perhaps both, to make a kite that will fly at the extremes. Many flyers buy kites based on specs, so if I say that the California Katana (standard pultruded frame) has a wind range of 5 to 15, and kite X, regardless of it's actual wind range, has a published wind range of 3 to 18, the spec buyer will choose kite X. |>> : I don't know how to correct this ongoing old problem of assigning wind |>> : ranges, the manufactures just have to try to be more honest about their |>> : ratings, but it is difficult to do. If they say 4 instead of 3, some would |>> : not buy that product. |>> |> |>And righfully so; thats a 33 423936ncrease in the amount of wind needed. So, does that mean that since I know kite X has a real wind range (defined as, "easy to fly, no pumping or moving backwards") of 5 to 15 that I should advertise the California Katana with a range of 3 to 18? Or do I just lose sales because I'm telling the truth and the manufacturer of kite X is not? ;-) |>> The problem is not the manufacture but the custmer, they want to get |>> one kite that will cover the entire wind range. You simply can not design |>> a high preformance kite that will cover 1-30mph. You have to make tradeoffs. |>> If you want a wide wind range, don't expect much at either end. Anyone that |>> advertizes a wind range that is larger than a factor of 10 is probably lieing. |> |>How can the fact that a kite will not fly in the suggested wind range |>be the fault of the customer?? We all want the endall-nowind-galewind- |>precision-radical-kite. If it is not available, then it is not |>available! The maker of a kite should not tell us that it is. I believe it is the fault of the retailer. The retailer should know enough about the product to tell the customer that certain claims are nonsense. The customer should be educated (high performance stunt kites cost a lot of money) before buying. I also believe that manufacturers should be honest in their claims, and I try to be conservative with my estimated wind ranges. |>Why should the consumer be responsible for knowing the ins and outs |>of wind ranges? Shouldn't a customer be able to just buy a kite |>with the correct wind range given? In general you are right. However folks will do lots of things to make money. If everyone did the "right" thing, we wouldn't need truth in advertising laws, or labeling laws. |>I think the problem lies with fact that most people think that the |>lowest wind their skin can feel is 1-2mph. Take the walk test. |>What did you feel? Yes, take the walk test, you will be very surprised. Don't depend too much on your turbo meter (or other anemometer). Most scientists and engineers who are serious about wind speed use expensive anemometers that measure pressure differences (oh no, not that again ;-) and calculate wind speed based on the pressure differences. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 08:46:04 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <46jc9c$av0@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve Bateman (bateman@mail.sdsu.edu) wrote: > skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) wrote: > > > > Djskites (djskites@aol.com) wrote: > I don't think Djskites wrote anything here. Yes he did.... I was responding to both of you. > > : Steve Bateman writes>I feel that newcomers to this sport shouldn't feel > > : disappointed when > > : they buy their first high end kite and try it out in really low > > : winds. That is, assuming that they know what 1-2mph feels like on > > : their face. I'm also tired of taking somebody's low wind estimate > > : with a grain of salt. > > > > A good way to determine the low end of the wind range is to look at > > sail loading. The lower the sail loading the less wind you need to fly > > line). But above about 18mph things start to bend to much. > > > But what do these low wind ratings mean? What weight line? What > length? IS THIS THE SAME 2MPH YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WALK 10 FEET IN 3.4 > SECONDS? As I said later in my post. I rate the low end of my kites while flying on the line I rate the kite at (i.e. I have flown the Free Spirit in 3mph on 150lb line). I also generaly fly on 100' lines. > > Yes I do realize what 20mph is.... If a kite will fly at 3mph do not > > expect it to hold together much above 20mph no matter what it is framed in. > > Protruded 2300 is good from 3mph to about 18 (20)mph. Skyshark 5p's will > > handle about 2-20mph. This is without changing the bridle settings by more > > then 1/4". > > > Please show me a kite framed in 2300 that flys the whole wind window > in 3mph (a true 3mph). My definition of wind window is about 120 degrees, or larger. As wind speed goes down, your window will shrink, in 15+ you can expect to see 180 degrees or more. My Free Spirit, and my new Radix are both 3-18. With the Free Spirit you need to switch to 200lb line or you will break 150lb in 18+. The Radix will not hold up in winds over about 18 do to it's long lower spreaders. Also my Skyburner One will fly in 3-25mph no problem. The ZR1 is rated 5-25mph, but I have flown mine regularly in 3mph. > > : I don't know how to correct this ongoing old problem of assigning wind > > : ranges, the manufactures just have to try to be more honest about their > > : ratings, but it is difficult to do. If they say 4 instead of 3, some would > > : not buy that product. > And righfully so; thats a 33 423936ncrease in the amount of wind needed. It may be a 33 423936ncrease in wind needed, but the difference between 3 and 4 mph is not much. But a manufacture should not rate a kite at 3 unless it will fly in 3. I do not rate my Flash Fire at 3, but with the correct equipment it will preform very well in 3mph. > How can the fact that a kite will not fly in the suggested wind range > be the fault of the customer?? We all want the endall-nowind-galewind- I was not saying that the kite should not fly in the given wind range (it most definitly should). But a customer may overlook a perfictly good kite just because it needs 4 mph vs 3mph. > precision-radical-kite. If it is not available, then it is not > available! The maker of a kite should not tell us that it is. Yes such a kite is not easy to make (I'm not sure it can be made)(but I have been proven wrong before :-). > Why should the consumer be responsible for knowing the ins and outs > of wind ranges? Shouldn't a customer be able to just buy a kite > with the correct wind range given? Many manufactures are out there to make money, anyway they can, many of them have no problem copying someone elses design or fudging a wind rating. Also many customers can not afford to buy 3 kites to cover the wind range, but can only afford one kite, and if they see one advertized to cover the whole range, they will buy it. I personaly hardly ever touch the bridles after the kite is tuned, if the wind is not right, I just change kites. Most flyers have 3-6 kites in there bag. > I think the problem lies with fact that most people think that the > lowest wind their skin can feel is 1-2mph. Take the walk test. > What did you feel? The lowest wind you can feel is about 3mph... below 2mph wind can really only be felt as pressure on the sail (or via smoke rising). Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 New Web pages, check out our new products and Fall Sale ========================================================================== > P.S. If possible, don't use colons to seperate your paragraphs as > they can be confusing to the reader. Sorry.... it was my news readers fault :-> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:08:27 -1000 From: djskites@aol.com (Djskites) Message-Id: <46jo4r$mmn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Rich writes> The problem is not the manufacture but the custmer, they want to get one kite that will cover the entire wind range. You simply can not design a high preformance kite that will cover 1-30mph. You have to make tradeoffs. If you want a wide wind range, don't expect much at either end. Anyone that advertizes a wind range that is larger than a factor of 10 is probably lieing. This is true, the average flyer does want a sport kite that can handle it all, and will in some cases disregard any rating anyway because they want to fly NOW! So in my opinion, it starts with manufacturer asigning a wind range that is as true as he/she can come up with, keep in mind that the manufacturer(some not all) wants their kites to sell, and are aware of what the end user wants, as far as wind ranges, and this may affect their rating. Then, it falls onto the retailer to "train" or instruct their customer on the fact that sport kites can't handle that "all wind range" and help them decide on the kite that fits their needs. I just came in from flying one of the kites I just started to import, and up till now, it had a high end rating of 20, I now found that I must lower it because it was shaking in 20 and I broke a spar because of the exccesive wind. So now, it has a high wind rating of 18. I am considering going to the Beufort scale like the Europeans do. Instead of saying a range of 3-20 or 2-18, we would say a wind range of 1-4 Bft. 1 = 1-3mph 4 =13-18 5=19-24 and so on. hope this helps dodd = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:15:40 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <46jvjc$lkk@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Opps, my mistake. My reader did not display Djskites reply until now. All I saw was the reply from Skyvision kites. My appologies. Steve Bateman bateman@mail.sdsu.edu Flying along. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:53:43 -1000 From: "Scott E. Humphrey" Message-Id: <46kfsn$jl2@news.it.gvsu.edu> Organization: Jackson Area Kitefliers Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve: You are absolutely correct about your response "1-2mph?? I too have fallen for that ploy put out by manufacturers. But now I feel that I know many manufacturers and I stick with the ones I trust, but you are right, how is a beginning kite-flier to know where to look and who to trust? My advise to a beginner is this: Go to a kite store that you trust and feel comfortable with. Most stores that I know have a good staff and are always willing to help. They can steer you in the right direction. If not, ask someone you see flying kites. The most unique thing about kites and their fliers is the closeness we all feel for each other. Kitefliers are honest with other kitefliers, at least I hope so?!?!? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:53:46 -1000 From: "Scott E. Humphrey" Message-Id: <46kfsq$jl2@news.it.gvsu.edu> Organization: Jackson Area Kitefliers Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve: You are absolutely correct about your response "1-2mph?? I too have fallen for that ploy put out by manufacturers. But now I feel that I know many manufacturers and I stick with the ones I trust, but you are right, how is a beginning kite-flier to know where to look and who to trust? My advise to a beginner is this: Go to a kite store that you trust and feel comfortable with. Most stores that I know have a good staff and are always willing to help. They can steer you in the right direction. If not, ask someone you see flying kites. The most unique thing about kites and their fliers is the closeness we all feel for each other. Kitefliers are honest with other kitefliers, at least I hope so?!?!? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:51:25 -1000 From: amirault@laraby.tiac.net (Richard Amirault) Message-Id: Organization: The Internet Access Company Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? This is a very interesting discussion. Let me add something from another perspective.... I am also a ham radio operator. Like kites, ham radio antennas are 'rated' for 'performance'. They are rated in how strong a signal they will receive/send (in Db's) However, the rating in VERY often inflated and or misrepresented. The figure is refrenced to a "standard" antenna, but there TWO standards! Many manufacturers purposly omit which standard they are using to make it seem that their antenna is more desirable. Other manufacturers just plain lie. The problem is not unique. Happy flying -- Richard Amirault N1JDU Boston, Massachusetts USA amirault@tiac.net "Go Fly A Kite" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:53:38 -1000 From: "Scott E. Humphrey" Message-Id: <46kfsi$jl2@news.it.gvsu.edu> Organization: Jackson Area Kitefliers Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve: You are absolutely correct about your response "1-2mph?? I too have fallen for that ploy put out by manufacturers. But now I feel that I know many manufacturers and I stick with the ones I trust, but you are right, how is a beginning kite-flier to know where to look and who to trust? My advise to a beginner is this: Go to a kite store that you trust and feel comfortable with. Most stores that I know have a good staff and are always willing to help. They can steer you in the right direction. If not, ask someone you see flying kites. The most unique thing about kites and their fliers is the closeness we all feel for each other. Kitefliers are honest with other kitefliers, at least I hope so?!?!? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:54:09 -1000 From: "Scott E. Humphrey" Message-Id: <46kfth$jl2@news.it.gvsu.edu> Organization: Jackson Area Kitefliers Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve: You are absolutely correct about your response "1-2mph?? I too have fallen for that ploy put out by manufacturers. But now I feel that I know many manufacturers and I stick with the ones I trust, but you are right, how is a beginning kite-flier to know where to look and who to trust? My advise to a beginner is this: Go to a kite store that you trust and feel comfortable with. Most stores that I know have a good staff and are always willing to help. They can steer you in the right direction. If not, ask someone you see flying kites. The most unique thing about kites and their fliers is the closeness we all feel for each other. Kitefliers are honest with other kitefliers, at least I hope so?!?!? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:53:51 -1000 From: "Scott E. Humphrey" Message-Id: <46kfsv$jl2@news.it.gvsu.edu> Organization: Jackson Area Kitefliers Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Steve: You are absolutely correct about your response "1-2mph?? I too have fallen for that ploy put out by manufacturers. But now I feel that I know many manufacturers and I stick with the ones I trust, but you are right, how is a beginning kite-flier to know where to look and who to trust? My advise to a beginner is this: Go to a kite store that you trust and feel comfortable with. Most stores that I know have a good staff and are always willing to help. They can steer you in the right direction. If not, ask someone you see flying kites. The most unique thing about kites and their fliers is the closeness we all feel for each other. Kitefliers are honest with other kitefliers, at least I hope so?!?!? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 03:45:12 -1000 From: Richard Bettis Message-Id: <745882094wnr@fats.demon.co.uk> Organization: Health & Safety Lab Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? In article: <46ja4a$rt@netope.harvard.edu> sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: > Don't depend too much on your turbo meter (or other anemometer). Most > scientists and engineers who are serious about wind speed use > expensive anemometers that measure pressure differences (oh no, not > that again ;-) and calculate wind speed based on the pressure > differences. > Fortunately, pressure differences don't come in here. Low wind speeds are usually measured using something called a hot-wire anemometer which uses a hot wire :) Pressure instruments are good at higher speeds but they (like people) have problem measuring the pressures generated by slowly moving fluids (oh no, not *that* again ;-) (I may not know much about kites - I'm here to learn - but flow measurement is one of the things I do to make kite money) -- +=============================================================================+ | Richard Bettis | "I make no warranty with respect to this | | | statement and disclaim any implied/explicit | | | suggestions of usefulness for any purpose" | +=============================================================================+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 05:04:19 -1000 From: bfk@aol.com (Bfk) Message-Id: <46ljlj$mih@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? We have found most manufacture wind ratings of kites to be inaccurate especially in the low range. Just about anyone can fly a kite in zero wind if they pump the kite and run backwards (witness the classic 360 maneuver). The true low wind range is how much wind does it take to lift a kite and perform a basic maneuver (such as a figure 8) without having to walk backwards and pump. If you use that criteria, most kite makers tend to be overly optimistic. In the absence of a test flight, the second best way to get an estimate of low end wind range is weight to sail ratio. Look at the kite's weight - If it is a typical 8 foot wingspan kite and it weighs 8 ounces, there is no way that kite can earn a true 1-2 mph rating. On the other hand, a 4 ounce kite can achieve that elusive 1-2 mph rating. On the high side, it gets rather tough because top wind speed will vary when measured at the ground or up in the air. In high wind conditions, there tend to be gusts that will easily alter +/- 5 mphs. Bridle settings also affect top wind range dramatically. For that reason, I would advocate putting the top range at the maximum wind range that is safe for a beginner at the factory bridle setting (I know I will get arguments on this one). Hoy BFK = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 09:32:52 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <46m3d4$v2a@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University - OIT/NSD Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? In article <46ljlj$mih@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, bfk@aol.com (Bfk) writes: |>In the absence of a test flight, the second best way to get an estimate of |>low end wind range is weight to sail ratio. Look at the kite's weight - |>If it is a typical 8 foot wingspan kite and it weighs 8 ounces, there is |>no way that kite can earn a true 1-2 mph rating. On the other hand, a 4 |>ounce kite can achieve that elusive 1-2 mph rating. You have to look at the efficiency of the wing as well. I've built experimental kites that weigh over 10 ounces, some around 16 ounces, (roughly 8 foot wingspan), but because of the shape of the airfoil do get airborne in surprisingly light wind. Paul Shuman (of aerodrone fame) has made similar experimental kites. These kites have other problems (how do you get them to turn?, how do make one so that you can sell it for less than $1000?), but by going to rigid wings, thicker airfoil sections, vortex generators and turbulators, you can get all sorts of lift at fairly high angles of attack. I've also built 4 ounce kites that need 3 mph to fly. :-( -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 05:49:12 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <46lm9o$nov@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? In article <469qi2$3hm@hole.sdsu.edu>, Steve Bateman writes: >I seem to hear about a lot of kites that will fly in 1-2mph * snip* > >I feel that newcomers to this sport shouldn't feel disappointed when >they buy their first high end kite and try it out in really low >winds. That is, assuming that they know what 1-2mph feels like on >their face. I'm also tired of taking somebody's low wind estimate >with a grain of salt. > > Right on Steve. You are absolutley correct in so many ways, and it is very difficult in this competitive field as a manufacturer to be honest, but that is exactly what we must do. I don't think i have anything new to add to this discussion except to agree with most of you that experience has to be taken into consideration. Dave Lord & i got into this discussion some time ago. Dave stated that no kite currently made could fly in less than 3 or 4mph, somehting i disputed at the time. Everything is relative. All i know is i've flown our kites flat footed when i could feel NO wind on my skin. Obviously there is some apparent wind somewhere, cause there has to be movement somehow. This may have more to do with a pilots skill than a kites abilities, certainly there are many factors to consider. The other end that bugs me the most is the high wind rating. I find it patently ridiculous that a framed kite can fly in 2 to 30mph. I've certainly never seen it done, nor do i know many people who would enjoy flying much of anything in that sort of wind (30). I'm not sure where some of these folks get there data, but i doubt it is in the field. As for new folks, education is the key. Ask lots of questions. Read as much as possible, then find out for yourself. aoxomoxoadean = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:49:53 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <46mbe1$dpa@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Djskites (djskites@aol.com) wrote: > This is true, the average flyer does want a sport kite that can handle it > all, and will in some cases disregard any rating anyway because they want > to fly NOW! How true!!! > [Deleted] > I am considering going to the Beufort scale like the Europeans do. Instead > of saying a range of 3-20 or 2-18, we would say a wind range of 1-4 Bft. > 1 = 1-3mph 4 =13-18 5=19-24 and so on. I like this Beufort is a lot easier to determin than miles per hour. It also fits in better with actual wind ranges. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 New Web pages, check out our new products and Fall Sale ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 22:43:26 -1000 From: jim@oasis.icl.co.uk (Jim Cheetham) Message-Id: Organization: ICL, Bracknell, UK. Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? AhClem0013 (ahclem0013@aol.com) wrote: : The other end that bugs me the most is the high wind rating. I find it : patently ridiculous that a framed kite can fly in 2 to 30mph. I've : certainly never seen it done, nor do i know many people who would enjoy : flying much of anything in that sort of wind (30). I'm not sure I agree with "patently ridiculous" in your point above. Some kites really do work. I have a kite (DarkStar, from Airdynamics in the UK) which will fly over a wide wind range, although some people count it as a cheat when I start fitting the air brakes and so on (removeable panels that live between the bottom spreaders, standoffs and wing). I've flown mine in about 3/4 mph OK, it didn't have the reaction of an ultralight but was performing adequately. I've also flown it in a 25/30mph. The frame bends quite a lot (but it can do that safely) and the kite speeds up tremendously - but it does fly well. The designer has flown it in a measured 38mph, which is quite a feat :-) I suppose I do agree with you when you complain about the published wind ranges for many kites. I couldn't get a Spectra Competition Edge flying in 3/4mph. Probably some other people could. I wouldn't fly the same kite in 30mph, but I'm sure it wouldn't rip itself apart :-) -- _____ ceci n'est ____ _ pas une _ _ email (__ __) o ______ ( __)( )_ ___ ___ _( )_( )_ ___ ______ (____) (_)(_)()(_) (____)(_)_)(__=)(__=) (_)_(_)_)(___)_(_)()(_) -jim cheetham, DCH Consultancy. +44 1481 34068 (24H) +44 1344 472537 (UK day) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 07:14:13 -1000 From: mss@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <199510261714.NAA16740@endor.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:25:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Neumeier Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? In my opinion, flying kites at their lower limit, when it's a moderate limit (6-8 mph), isn't much fun at all. All you can do is barely keep the kite in the air. I recently bought a Prism Ion. Prism claims that it will fly in as low as 3 mph. Into the Wind rates it at 6-20, which I think is more resonable. ******************************************************** *Greetings from behind the redwood curtain; Arcata, CA * *Dave Neumeier don1@axe.humboldt.edu :) * ******************************************************** = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 04:22:56 -1000 From: djskites@aol.com (Djskites) Message-Id: <46o5k0$3vf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? > This is true, the average flyer does want a sport kite that can handle it > all, and will in some cases disregard any rating anyway because they want > to fly NOW! >> How true!!! > [Deleted] > I am considering going to the Beufort scale like the Europeans do. Instead > of saying a range of 3-20 or 2-18, we would say a wind range of 1-4 Bft. > 1 = 1-3mph 4 =13-18 5=19-24 and so on. >> I like this Beufort is a lot easier to determin than miles per hour. It also fits in better with actual wind ranges. >>Rich And I agree with rich becuase it is basically all educated guessing any way. My "FLight School Section" from my old retail days is now being updated with the addition of a product catalog for retailers. I decided to use both Mph and Bft. For instance: The Manufacturer specs says that a Jam Session flys in 1.5Bft - 5 Bft and the Icarex(same frame) flys in 1.5-5Bft .....Looks the same. I know for a fact that the Icarex flys in less. So, My rating will look like this: Standard: Windrange 3.5-20mph/1.5-5Bft Icarex: Windrange 3.0-20mph/1.5-5 Bft Some would disagree with these ranges, I know that some can fly in less than stated, but the Bft gives us a range to work with. I know that 1.5 Bft= 3.5mph but using the mph, even lower than the Bft Rating lets the buyer know that the Icarex model has the capability to fly in less than the standard without changing the Manufacturers original rating. Hope this helps! Dodd Gross North and South America Importer/Wholesaler of HQ & Fizz Sport Kites Master Instructor Flight School World Tour Flight School Instructional Video Series \\\\\\\\\\\\Disclaimer/////////////// Because of my involvement with the above products and services, my views and statements may be seen as biased. I can assure you I am a flier FIRST! Quote of the month "Hay alquien aqui que hable ingles?" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:42:32 -1000 From: marklift1@aol.com (MARKLIFT1) Message-Id: <46p6d8$kdc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? My real complaint is the kites that are listed to fly in 0 mph wind. Obviously no kite will fly with no wind. Truthfully these kites really fly in winds from 1 - 3 mph generated by the movement of the flyer. Sure they will fly indoors, but they require this amount of movement. Maybe low end wind should be based on what will keep it in the air without moving. But since few fly this way, is that a fair way to state it? I realize these estimates are mainly to get people to buy and give a relative view of the winds the kite will fly in. Unfortunately, some people take them as fact. 4 or 5 years ago, I probably did too. You won't know until you fly it. Mark V = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 19:34:39 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <46pr1f$hku@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Jim Cheetham (jim@oasis.icl.co.uk) wrote: > I'm not sure I agree with "patently ridiculous" in your point > above. Some kites really do work. I have a kite (DarkStar, from > Airdynamics in the UK) which will fly over a wide wind range, > although some people count it as a cheat when I start fitting > the air brakes and so on (removeable panels that live between > the bottom spreaders, standoffs and wing). > I've flown mine in about 3/4 mph OK, it didn't have the > reaction of an ultralight but was performing adequately. > I've also flown it in a 25/30mph. The frame bends quite > a lot (but it can do that safely) and the kite speeds > up tremendously - but it does fly well. The designer > has flown it in a measured 38mph, which is quite a feat :-) If you count air breaks or wind tammers I can fly my Standard Free Spirit >From about 2mph to at least 25+ (rated 3-18mph). Below 3mph the kite requires 50lb line, and alot of moving to be able to preform any stunts. Over 15mph the frame bend it to much without a air break. Above 20mph be prepared to be dragged! I have regularly broken 150lb line with this 6'5" power house. The only problem with doing this is that you stretch the sail out by flying the kite in high winds, it destroys the low end. > I suppose I do agree with you when you complain about the > published wind ranges for many kites. I couldn't get a > Spectra Competition Edge flying in 3/4mph. Probably some It might be able to fly in 2mph with work. > other people could. I wouldn't fly the same kite in 30mph, > but I'm sure it wouldn't rip itself apart :-) You could not hold an Edge in 30mph :-). I'm sure it would hold for a few minutes it is built like a tank. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 New Web pages, check out our new products and Fall Sale ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 05:56:48 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? To pick up a couple of points: sasaki@harvard.edu writes: >I'm always hesitant to state the low end for my kites. The performance >of a kite in very low wind is very subjective and has a lot to do with >the skill of the pilot. I'll say. I recall my experience with the High Flier's Wild Thang (very small, fibre-glass, no stand-offs delta - the archetypal high wind kite). First time I tried it, as a new flier, in a reasonable breeze I couldn't fly it at all. 3 years later, when I tried again, I flew a 360, no problem. >The customer should be educated (high performance stunt >kites cost a lot of money) before buying. I would reccommend anyone asking advice to fly before they buy. Then you *know* what you are buying. Simple, huh? Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Psst! Wanna buy a roll of white, wide, Carrington seconds? gimme a call! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:55:20 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? I've bitten my tongue for long enough on this thread. Give me any decent light-weight (1/2 oz Icarex) *soft* kite (Peel, Sputnik, or 4-line) and I'll show you it flying both indoors and in as much wind as I dare. What'dya wanna put *sticks* in it for anyway? *grin* Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Psst! Wanna buy a roll of white, wide, Carrington seconds? gimme a call! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 06:55:09 -1000 From: neitzke@elk.miles.com (Robert C. Neitzke) Message-Id: Organization: Bayer Corporation Subject: Re: 1-2mph?? Ho Nooooo .... You don't want to use Beaufort !!! ??? Hey, it's funny, just say it a few times. It's totally rediculous ! Check out some of the Beaufort definitions in the books. Most definitions that I've seen are tongue in cheek. Make Light ! Make merry ! Life is short. Go fly a kite and have some fun. Kiting is supposed to be FUN !!! So let's keep and maximize the use of Beaufort scales and have even MORE fun ! Why does the internet make some folks soooo stuffy, cheeze !!! gone flyin' birdofplay@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =